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I would appreciate your thoughts on this to see if I have any grounds to claim.
I am a regular traveller on South West Trains into London and each time I travel I purchase a cheap day one day travel card for £26.4. One morning when I arrived at the station the guy in front of me at the ticket machine was paying with his coin collection, the ticket office was busy, the permit to travel machine was out of action, and for the first time ever the train was early.
Since the trains are every 30 minutes I wasn’t keen to miss it, but no problem I though because I would just by a ticket on the train as the guard sells tickets. Being after 8:30am I am entitled to a cheap day fare. However when I tried to purchase it from the guard he refused to sell me the cheaper ticket and charged me the full fare.
His initial reason was I was on the wrong train and had to travel later, but when I show him 2 weeks worth of tickets he said he wasn’t going to sell me the ticket and that what that. I could either get off or pay the fare.
Not being a fare dodger and having a wallet full of old tickets I was pretty annoyed. Even more annoyed the following morning when I saw another passenger purchase a cheap day ticket from the guard on the train.
In 2 years I have brought the odd ticket on the train and witnessed countless other passengers by the cheaper tickets with out any issues or comment.
I wrote to SW Trains and got back the normal its our policy etc and by a ticket before you board. However surely I have grounds for some kind of appeal if other passengers travelling the same journey pay a different fare than I do. Either all passengers buying their ticket on the trains pay full price or all the guards follow the same rules. It cant be legal to impose fares that differ from one day to the next, one guard to the next and one passenger to the next.
I wrote back to SW Trains and ask them to reconsider or I will request they supply me the records of all the tickets issue on the train by the guards so I can see if I have been treated unfairly and possibly take legal action. However they ignored my letter.
Am I wasting my time with them, or should I fight?
If you boarded the train without a ticket and had the opportunity to buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before boarding, then according to the National Conditions of Carriage you are not entitled to a discounted fare and should pay the full standard fare for your journey. You could also have faced a Penalty Fare in the same circumstances.
Obviously guards might use their discretion to sell you a discounted fare but they are under no obligation to do so. A different guard might have a different approach but the undiscounted fare was in fact the correct one for your journey. The fact that guards have done you a favour on previous occasions does not mean that you can expect this every time.
Unfortunately, it is a sad fact that a large proportion of people who walk past the booking office and board a train without a ticket have no intention of buying a ticket unless made to, and so these people need to be encouraged to buy a ticket every time.
For the record Cheap Day Travelcards are not valid on any train arriving in London before 10am.
I experienced this only a few days ago. I had a ticket but the person to my side did not. He got on the train at a station with a ticket office.
The guard asked if he was late for the train and got the reply No, "I was on the platform waiting for five minutes". The guard then insisted the Standard Single fare was paid. The traveller was far from happy when after the next station the guard sold Cheap Day tickets without question. This was because the latter station did not have a ticket office.
PUTTING IT IN WRITING & KEEPING COPIES IS A MUST FOR SUCCESS
A girl from work recevied a penalty notice of £20. She walked up to him to buy a ticket and got charged. Is there any rights or perhaps parametres that we could argue on the ticket?
It depends on the station she got on at. Should it be a penalty fare station, the conductor is within his rights to charge a fee. If however she got on at a non-penalty fair station, or one where there were no staff, working ticket or permit machines you could argue against it.
I am happy to offer helpful advise in many consumer problems based on my retail experience. I do not represent any company, and any advise I do offer is my opinion and how I understand the law. I have no authority to create any terms for any company I do work for and will just nudge you in the right direction without breeching their trust.
Has anyone read the papers, all in there about how trian companies are profiting from penalty tickets!!
Could we add any regulation to do with this pleasE?
It mentions about if you have to wait more than 5 minutes at the station then it should not issue the most expensive ticket, nor should it issue the most expensive ticket - which it is doing. Where is this information in actual regulation though
I'm not aware of any regulation that states you can board a train without a ticket if the queueing time is over 5 minutes. The general rule is that you must buy a ticket or permit to travel before you board, or be charged the full undiscounted fare for your journey. This means no Cheap Day Returns or Railcard discounts, so it could easily be twice the cheapest fare if you're travelling off-peak.
However the Guard has wide discretion to sell you a disounted ticket if he sees fit, particularly if you approach him (it usually is him) instead of waiting to be caught.
What South West Trains have said now is that they will discipline any Guard who exercises that discretion, even towards passengers who seek out the Guard to buy a ticket. I think that apporach is misguided for several reasons, not least because the Guard operates alone and this will inevitably increase the risk of assaults. The Guard's primary role is his safety-critical duties and not as a ticket inspector.
A pedantic point, the news today is not about Penalty Fares per se, but about the discounted and undiscounted fares.
What about different angles?
What do they need to keep their Train licence? Or competition angle, can they be seen to be obviously out to profit even though they are heavily subsided?
I can't see that this is a breach of their Franchising Agreement - they're just upholding the law, albeit harshly.
They are entitled to make a profit, they are a private company after all. And in the case of SWT, they aren't subsidised at all, they pay the Government a premium for their Franchise. I think part of the background to this is that they are struggling to raise the revenue to pay the premium and make a profit, and passengers are being squeezed. But that doesn't make it illegal.
Yesterday's Evening Standard carried details of a confidential memo from SWT stating that it's "Revenue Protection Officers" should adopt a zero tolerance policy and their performance would be partly assessed by how many penalty fares they issued.
I would have no problem with this if the company had enough staff at its ticket offices, had enough ticket machines and made sure that these facilities were actually available. As the Standard suggested, this looks more like an attempt to raise revenue than anything else.
As someone who has recently become a regular SWT customer, I would also say that I would be far happer if the company put as much effort into reducing the cattle truck conditions on its trains as it does in collecting revenue.
But can a penatly be made into a profit ? Surely you could demand only to pay discounted fare then? There must be some regulation to protect us?
There is.
To qualify for a discounted fare you must purchase your ticket before boarding.
Its no different than if I walk into Manchester Picadilly and book a day return ticket to London, asking for the cheapest. Had I booked three weeks before I would have paid probably a third of the "on the day" price.
Very similar on Buses were the Standard Single fare of £10.00 or £20.00 is charged for passenger travelling without a valid ticket. Should a revenue inspector catch a passenger with a fake or expired pass the standard fare is payable. Its all covered in the Terms of Travel.
PUTTING IT IN WRITING & KEEPING COPIES IS A MUST FOR SUCCESS
The level of the Penalty Fare is laid down by law. Equally, the National Conditions of Carriage and the Railway Byelaws make it clear that tickets must be bought before boarding where facilities are available.
Being made to pay the full fare isn't a penalty as such, but it is a sad fact that many of the people who board without buying a ticket first are actually trying to get away without paying at all. Passengers who have queued up deserve protection from passengers who drive up fares by not paying at all.
As far as commission is concerned, i think all Conductors get 5% of their revenue in commission. But that's mostly an incentive to actually go through the train checking tickets as opposed to sitting at the back drinking tea. I don't think that the level of commission on an individual ticket (which is likely to be few pence in any case) makes much of a difference when selling a ticket.
SW Trains unfair charge
and possibly take legal action. However they ignored my letter.
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Originally Posted by robert_harper_2000
