Thread: mfpa vs Halifax

Hi. I'm new to this forum, although I have looked at similar sites before as I am thinking of trying to reclaim some bank charges.

I have several accounts with Halifax, some of which have incurred substantial charges over the years, indeed a total of £468 since November 2006. Some are sole accounts, some joint and my wife has some of her own.

I also have a secured personal loan with Halifax on which payments bounce from time to time (and penalties levied) as the bank charges mean insufficient funds in my current account to cover the payments.

In addition I have a Bank of Scotland credit card that makes some penalty charges for late payments and for going overlimit. This has a balance exceeding £9k.

4 questions for now

1. Do the joint accounts have to be treated separately from the sole accounts?

2. Is it inadvisable to include the secured personal loan?

3. Would the BOS credit card need its own claim, or would one against HBOS cover it?

4. Given the risks of account closure and necessity for possible immediate repayment, is it worth leaving the credit card for now?

Thanks

Similar Threads:

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• Cheeky Monkey V Halifax ***another Halifax Winner ***

Still reading and not yet ready to proceed.

However, today I received letters from Halifax regarding 2 accounts that are overdrawn due to their charges (ie the accounts were in credit before the charges were debited). No overdraft facility on these.

They threaten to close my accounts and to demand immediate payment if I don't remedy the breach by paying money in before [date]. One of these dates is over a week ago, the other is in about a week.

They say in their letters "without our agreement you have used your account or allowed someone else to use it so as to make your account go overdrawn".

Without Halifax plc's agreement I have "allowed" Halifax plc to take money from my account...

Originally Posted by mfpa

They threaten to close my accounts and to demand immediate payment...

Accounts still open, no payment from me. They are "sorry" that I find cause to complain about the charges.

Now they are writing about payment that was missed on secured loan because their current account charges swallowed the money destined for it.

This is resulting in charges on loan account and threats of default notice and court order for possession.

SAR posted Tuesday 27th; joint names with my wife, requesting info for joint and individually named accounts - current/"cardcash" accounts, secured loan, an old mortgage and a credit card (but not passbook "saver" accounts as IIRC no charges taken).

I notice the SAR on the information commissioner's website asks for "the
logic involved in any automated decisions taken by you about me" but the one here on CAG does not. I suppose this would be interesting but not relevant?[But I asked for it anyway]

Also, the template letters do not request interest rates applicable to the accounts - can this be requested in the SAR to make it easier to claim back contractural interest on the charges? I'm sure this must be covered somewhere but when I tried to search for it my PC froze!
[I have requested the interest rates]

Originally Posted by mfpa

SAR posted Tuesday 27th

SAR signed for 29th March. No reply yet.

Good luck mfpa --- stick with you and you will get YOUR money back from the Halifax. Whilst waiting for your statements, spend as much time reading around the Halifax forum as possible. Invest in a good highlighter too

Have a read of my thread to see how I got on with the Halifax. From reading around the threads Halifax do seem to be one of the better ones - dare I say that - for settling prior to court proceedings.

If they have defaulted you because of the charges, then you can request that the default be removed too.

Best wishes.

Originally Posted by jaxads

Good luck mfpa --- stick with you and you will get YOUR money back from the Halifax. Whilst waiting for your statements, spend as much time reading around the Halifax forum as possible.

Thanks. Halifax signed for my S.A.R - (Subject access request) four weeks ago now and have not acknowledged it or sent anything yet. I suppose they are in no hurry.

Originally Posted by jaxads

Have a read of my thread to see how I got on with the Halifax. From reading around the threads Halifax do seem to be one of the better ones - dare I say that - for settling prior to court proceedings.

Wow.

I noticed today on Halifax Online that one of my accounts is shown as "enquiry service only" and another is shown as closed. Enquiry only is moot, because the charging regime rendered that account unuseable some time ago. They seem to have closed an account without telling me.

Originally Posted by Perseus

You could also send a Data Protection Act section 10 letter which will not only confirm the account is in dispute, but clearly advise that they should stop processing data/non-disclosure to 3rd parties/contact credit ref agencies etc. That letter is in the template library.

Originally Posted by mfpa

Maybe that section 10 Data Protection Act letter could be of use to me. I am currently in arrears on a Halifax secured loan because Halifax decided earlier in the year to remove money from my accounts in unwarranted charges instead of allowing me to pay them with it. (For example, £351 between 22nd December 2006 and 23RD February 2007.)

In my letter to them of 12th March I told them to use some of the money they have taken from my accounts to clear the arrears. I also pointed out that one day's notice was not sufficient to issue a default, which they threatened, and that they needed more than one missed payment.

My next letter to them, dated 4th April included:-

Thank you for your letter referenced “P/3/DRCR/DN(S)/”, which was delivered in duplicate today. I note you have not had the courtesy to address the points made in my letter of 12th March (copy enclosed for ease of reference).

Your letter of 3rd April mentions arrears of £206.36. I dispute this figure. Your letter of 5th March gave the arrears as £150.72. When the next monthly payment became due this increased to £301.44 and my payment of £130.00 on 28th March decreased it to £171.44.

You also state that £376.05 before 1st May is required to remedy the situation. Presumably the figure should be the arrears plus the next monthly payment and I calculate that to be £321.36. I have no way of paying anything remotely approaching that amount before 1st May but I shall pay at least the remaining £20.72 of the monthly payment, perhaps before you receive this letter.


The amount owing is disputed. The money they want I cannot give them because they took it from my accounts.

They have now issued me a "default notice under s. 87(1) of the CCA, giving me 4 days to pay another amount that does not add up. The threats if not include "we hereby requires forthwith of all monies outstanding under the agreement", along with DCA and or legal proceedings. They say they wont tell the CRAs for 28 days.

Halifax have also closed one current account and frozen another- not just without notice but without even telling me after (so far. I discovered it via internet banking over a week ago).

And Halifax's shenannigans have caused me serious problems with first direct, who have closed a deposit account without telling me, closed a current account and demanding immediate repayment of £500 overdraft, not to mention the mortgage.

Any thoughts about DPA s10?

i'd write a letter to ASAP stating that all the account are offically in dipute, and untill this dispute is settled they've not to take any action in regard to these accounts. you'll still have to try to pay the loan, but they shouldn't close the accounts, withdraw overdraft ect, and they'll keep on charging you. explain why the accounts are in dispute, that should help

Halifax signed for my SAR on 29th March. I think that's 41 days ago. Heard nothing so far. Should I chase, report to Info Commissioner's Office, or both?

both, there a SAR noncompliance lba in the templates

Originally Posted by c_allen

both, there a S.A.R - (Subject access request) noncompliance lba in the templates

1. Considering that one. Should I enclose a copy of the S.A.R - (Subject access request), for ease of reference? Should I chase Royal Mail to see if the postal order is cashed? I am amazed they have no automated system to check this on their website.

2. Also thinking of sending a CCA to Halifax in respect of my secured loan (in arrears, mainly due to Halifax taking bank charges). I'm sure a mortgage company such as Halifax will have all required documents for a secured loan that is only 2 or 3 years old but they seem to routinely ignore my letters, so they may default on a CCA request and thereby give me a bit more time. I just don't feel comfortable beginning with "I do NOT acknowledge any debt to your company":I dispute the amount but not the whole debt. Any thoughts? BTW, have found my copy of the CCA agreement.

3. Even though I have written twice disputing the amount of arrears (and also telling them I cannot afford to pay them) they sent me a Default Notice and now a letter threatening action to recover without further notice (court, DCA...). Which laws/regulations does this breach?

4. Hx and BOS are still ringing me at least daily, despite verbal requests not to, followed by a letter about telephone harassment.

sorry i'm still learning myself so i can only really say what i'd do,

1. don't bother chasing it up if you've got proof of posting, ie recorded del
2. you might as well, you've nothing to lose apart from £1
3. i'd send them another letter stating in very large letters that the account/amount is in dispute, explian why it is, and tell them if they don't understand what this means to consult their legal dept, ive done this but i think they still defaulted me, even after i'd sent the prelim, lba and 2 letters telling them it was in dispute, and 1 month after i'd started proceedings, i'm looking into this now that they've paid me out more than 45 x what they defaulted me for, so i'm thinking along the lines of libel or defamation . the more proof the better
4. another letter won't hurt, them i'd be thinking about getting the police involved
i'd PM gary h, and ask him to have a look at your thread, include a link.
hope this helps

Originally Posted by c_allen

sorry i'm still learning myself so i can only really say what i'd do,

1. don't bother chasing it up if you've got proof of posting, ie recorded del

I have proof of posting and of delivery (delivered 29th March) but no reply and I don't know if they cashed the postal order. Just thought if I send the S.A.R - (Subject access request) noncompliance lba it may be worth including a copy of my S.A.R - (Subject access request) in case they have "lost" it. And I have several unconfirmed recorded items to chase Royal Mail for, so may as well enquire about the postal order.

Originally Posted by c_allen

2. you might as well, you've nothing to lose apart from £1

I just don't like to say "I do NOT acknowledge any debt to your company": it suggests I'm trying not to pay their £20k. This is not the case, I just can't afford to at the moment - due in no small part to their own act of snaffling money from my accounts.

Originally Posted by c_allen

3. i'd send them another letter stating in very large letters that the account/amount is in dispute, explain why it is, and tell them if they don't understand what this means to consult their legal dept

However many letters do they need? As far as I am concerned they are harassing me by making these threats of unlawful action.

Originally Posted by c_allen

ive done this but i think they still defaulted me, even after i'd sent the prelim, lba and 2 letters telling them it was in dispute, and 1 month after i'd started proceedings, i'm looking into this now that they've paid me out more than 45 x what they defaulted me for, so i'm thinking along the lines of libel or defamation . the more proof the better

Isn't there something you can do through Trading Standards or/and the Information Commissioner's Office [why isn't this just called "The Information Commission?] to get the CRAs to chase them to prove the defaults are kosher or else remove them?

Originally Posted by c_allen

4. another letter won't hurt, them i'd be thinking about getting the police involved

I suppose it's all evidence. Wish I'd asked for a log of their calls to me (including the unanswered and the silent majority) and a copy/transcript of their recordings in my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

Got MBNA/GVI and First Direct hassling, too. Should not have GVI as MBNA agreed (verbally) not to "outsource" my accounts.

Originally Posted by c_allen

i'd PM gary h, and ask him to have a look at your thread, include a link.
hope this helps

Thanks. Will do.

BTW, your signature says

IF YOUR CLAIMING C/I, DON'T ACCEPT PARTIAL PAYMENTS

Why is that?

[quote=mfpa;809459]
I have proof of posting and of delivery (delivered 29th March) but no reply and I don't know if they cashed the postal order. Just thought if I send the S.A.R - (Subject access request) noncompliance lba it may be worth including a copy of my S.A.R - (Subject access request) in case they have "lost" it. And I have several unconfirmed recorded items to chase Royal Mail for, so may as well enquire about the postal order.

proof of postage is good enough in court to prove receipt, they'll mess you around for as long as they can, if you give them an inch



I just don't like to say "I do NOT acknowledge any debt to your company": it suggests I'm trying not to pay their £20k. This is not the case, I just can't afford to at the moment - due in no small part to their own act of snaffling money from my accounts.


the idea behind doing this is if they fail to produce the document within 12 or 14? days, then you can legally stop paying them untill they do


However many letters do they need? As far as I am concerned they are harassing me by making these threats of unlawful action.

I agree with you, you don't have to, but it can't hurt, and makes you look good if it ever comes to court,


Isn't there something you can do through Trading Standards or/and the Information Commissioner's Office [why isn't this just called "The Information Commission?] to get the CRAs to chase them to prove the defaults are kosher or else remove them?

you con, but their slow and mostly ineffective


I suppose it's all evidence. Wish I'd asked for a log of their calls to me (including the unanswered and the silent majority) and a copy/transcript of their recordings in my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

you could ask the phone company for one

Got MBNA/GVI and First Direct hassling, too. Should not have GVI as MBNA agreed (verbally) not to "outsource" my accounts.


Thanks. Will do.

BTW, your signature says Why is that?

i've just won C/I from halifax, but last nov they paid me all the charges, leaving only the C/I, i carried on for this when i should have kept my claim whole, if you keep your claim whole they'll pay up because they don't want to show their real cost, if you let them split your claim and leave you with just the C/I, then your on very dodgy groung, firstly the judge may not agree with you and throw your claim out, you'll not get any interest, the s69 8% is JUDGEMENT INTEREST, so theres been no judgement because they've paid before the hearing, and also the judge may think that you had no basis in law to carry on for the C/I, and award cost against you [even in small claims] and the banks are much more likely to actually appear in court based on this.
I think i was very lucky they paid me at the last minute, but they had left £31 in charges when they paid me in nov,. i don't know if this was a mistake, but i was 5 days away from having to go to court for £31 in charges and over £2000 in interest. my threads here, me v helifax*won*( read the last 5 or 6 pages and you'll see what i mean

Letter from Hx in response to their issue of a Default Notice on my disputed secured loan account:-

Our records show that you are unhappy we have issued a Notice of Default on the above account and feel this is unjust as you are at this time disputing details regarding this account.

A Notice of Default has indeed been issued under set recovery guidelines to which we must adhere to at all times when an account shows to be outside of its agreed terms and conditions. I also note that this loan is secured on your property

[...]

we cannot stop recoveries action, nor can we agree a reduced repayment arrangement without negotiations between yourself and Payplan...

They also claim that, as it is now over 8 weeks since they wrote back [without] addressing my initial dispute the case is considered closed.

I do not recognise their 8-week limit as I am not regulated by the FSA. Also, I wrote to them three times within the 8 weeks but they have not bothered answering my letters.

Anybody know where it says they can't Default a disputed account?

More correspondence when I have time...

Originally Posted by mfpa

Anybody know where it says they can't Default a disputed account?

OK, found it:-

The Banking Code, Section 13.6 [what is the legal status of The Banking Code?]

"We may give information to credit reference agencies about the personal
debts you owe us if:
• you have fallen behind with your payments;
• the amount owed is not in dispute; and
• you have not made proposals we are satisfied with for repaying your debt,
following our formal demand."


I have also seen many posts on this site referring to their not being able to take any enforcement action if the account is in dispute. What is the legal basis for stating this? Is it true, false, or uncertain?

Card yesterday in an envelope from Bank of Scotland saying:-


IMPORTANT NOTICE

Our representative will be calling your home on: Date______________

PLEASE TELEPHONE 0870 8501291 IF THIS IS NOT CONVENIENT.


Must be about credit card, otherwise would say Halifax. CCA was signed for the day after they posted this notice.

Wording suggests they are threatening to ring rather than visit but they have been ringing several times a day (even though instructed in writing to only contact me in writing) for several weeks, so why would they tell me?

Anyway, even if it was acceptable (which it isn't) it would be difficult to say if convenient without a time.

S.A.R - (Subject access request) non-compliance lba posted 23rd May; delivery still not confirmed by Royal Mail.

Letter from HBOS PLC dated 6th June stating that they currently have lots of similar requests and confirming that I should receive a response no later than 40 days after they received my original request. (-;

Letter from Halifax PLC dated 7th June confirming the information has been ordered and will be sent. I am to feel free to get in touch if not received within two weeks.

Have received thick envelopes from them over the last week containing some statements and other documents but not yet everything.

(Not had time to plough through it all yet as busy with my Royal Mail case.)