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Hi everyone, this is my first post, so I hope its in the right place...
Just got a speeding fine from a roadside camera - my first one after driving for 25 years. No complaints about that, I wasnt paying attention and have now got 3 points and a £60 fine. I will try harder in future!
However, my vehicle is issued by my employer, and from a leasing company. The leasing company have slapped a £20 + VAT = £23.50 charge on top of the fine just for telling the police who the driver of the vehicle is! I reckon that to be a surcharge of over 39% on my £60 fine, probably for just a few seconds of computer time.
My employer has deducted it straight from my pay packet, so I didnt even get to argue about the level of the charge.
I'm going to go and see the boss about it, and wondered if any of you folks had any tips on what I should say? (well any printable ones that is!)
Hi everyone, this is my first post, so I hope its in the right place...
Just got a speeding fine from a roadside camera - my first one after driving for 25 years. No complaints about that, I wasnt paying attention and have now got 3 points and a £60 fine. I will try harder in future!
However, my vehicle is issued by my employer, and from a leasing company. The leasing company have slapped a £20 + VAT = £23.50 charge on top of the fine just for telling the police who the driver of the vehicle is! I reckon that to be a surcharge of over 39% on my £60 fine, probably for just a few seconds of computer time.
My employer has deducted it straight from my pay packet, so I didnt even get to argue about the level of the charge.
I'm going to go and see the boss about it, and wondered if any of you folks had any tips on what I should say? (well any printable ones that is!)
Cheers
Mendigo
Pretty simple this one. Contract Law, when your employer leased the vehicle, believe me, there WILL be a condition in the lease that states they are allowed to do this, what you need to look at is, is your employer allowed to pass on the charge? What you need to do is check that your contract of employment allows for these kind of circumstances, if it absolutely doesn't then they can't!
You can quite legally demand that they prove beyond all doubt that you were the driver i.e. PHOTOGRAPH! But I do believe that they will do that!
(You have admitted the offence!)
I'm sure that you're only recourse will be that the penalty charge is excessive and doesn't reflect their loss. The best that I think you can do is have the fee reduced to £12.00
Regards - Dave..
If my post was helpful don't forget to click the star!
Advice is offered freely, without liability and without prejudice.
If in any doubt professional legal advice should be sought.
I do not profess to be in any way legally trained, I am a big
oily truck driver and all I know has been learned within the
Consumer Action Group.
Your employer cant make deductions except for tax and NI unless you agree to it.
Speak to ACAS or go on the DTI website.
Otherwise they could take payments for anything.
I'm sure that you're only recourse will be that the penalty charge is excessive and doesn't reflect their loss. The best that I think you can do is have the fee reduced to £12.00
Your employer cant make deductions except for tax and NI unless you agree to it.
Speak to ACAS or go on the DTI website.
Otherwise they could take payments for anything.
Mr Hyde/Cheshire (just 'round the corner from me!) is right! It's called making an unlawful deduction. But at the end of the day, if U want to be dismissed for committing an act (in their view) of gross missconduct.........!
You've already admitted the offence! Deny it and they then prove it, you're sacked! Sorry to say this, you've admitted it.... there's prob's photo's to prove it........?
Seriously, it's still at the 1st stage? £60 & 3 points?
If U actually did it, and that's the end of it... I'ld leave it at that and
have a go at the employer in relation to the penalty charge!
But it still comes down to if or not U want to keep u're job!
U got caught!?? Is it worth u're job...?? If not, just pay it!!!
If my post was helpful don't forget to click the star!
Advice is offered freely, without liability and without prejudice.
If in any doubt professional legal advice should be sought.
I do not profess to be in any way legally trained, I am a big
oily truck driver and all I know has been learned within the
Consumer Action Group.
You've already admitted the offence! Deny it and they then prove it, you're sacked! Sorry to say this, you've admitted it.... there's prob's photo's to prove it........?
Seriously, it's still at the 1st stage? £60 & 3 points?
If U actually did it, and that's the end of it.
I don't believe mendigo is disputing the speeding fine at all. Only questionning if his employer is entitled to deduct that money from his account, or if the leasing company should charge that amount in the first place.
IMO yes the employer should recover that charge from the OP as there is no reason the employer should be out of pocket for this. Was notice given to the OP this money would be deducted from his account ? If so, and he agreed, then thats the end of it really.
So the only thing to look at really is whether the leasing company is entitled in charging a service fee for providing information to the police. I don't believe it can be perceived as a penalty charge as it itsn't a breach of contract they are charging for.?
Assuming that the deduction is not specifically provided for in leglislation to make the deduction from the wages the OPs agreed contract of employment must include a term that allows for deductions to be made for passing on the cost of fines and they must agree in writing to the deduction prior to it being made.
If the OP did not agree and wants to do something about it they will have to take out a grievance against their employer.
Lloyds TSB, Total Charges £900, Claim Filed for £1379 - Settled
Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card, Total Charges £90 - Settled.
I would respectfully suggest that 99% of companies who habd out company cars have the ability to deduct charges for wages as a condition of having a company car - which you sign when ordering the car.
Thus the deduction from wages is perfectly lawful. Some companies further add their own admin charges on top.
If your company is VAT registered, then they will be reclaiming the VAT element as an input tax - so they should only charge you £20. If they are re-charging the VAT to you then you should demand a VAT reciept as your legal right. One company I worked for found this too complicated to manage (as they can't simply put it through as a salary deduction - they have to have a VAT invoice) so they stopped recharging these costs.
It is iniquitous that the leasing company can charge for doing that which they are required to do by law. Unfortunately, you cannot challenge this an an unlawful penalty as their contract is not with you, but with your company.
Since the advent of speed cameras this is an interesting subject.
As the offender though willing to admit the offence has not had an opportunity to identify themselves to the authorities should the leasing company be permitted to add a further charge simply because they are the registered owner & are acting as required by law.
Therefore any automated speeding fine involving a hired car is automaticly subject to an additional penalty imposed by the hire company.
Also on the basis that they paid the charge & I suggest with the employers consent they can claim direct from the hire company.
Since the advent of speed cameras this is an interesting subject.
As the offender though willing to admit the offence has not had an opportunity to identify themselves to the authorities should the leasing company be permitted to add a further charge simply because they are the registered owner & are acting as required by law.
Therefore any automated speeding fine involving a hired car is automaticly subject to an additional penalty imposed by the hire company.
Also on the basis that they paid the charge & I suggest with the employers consent they can claim direct from the hire company.
The leasing company are not directly adding to the charge since they do not pay the £60. They are making a charge to fill out the police form to name the company as the hirer. The company then gets its own NIP/S172 to name the driver and ultimately the driver will get his/her own NIP/S172 to 'fess up. Only this last one is used for prosecution.
However, for parking tickets, most leasing companies do pay (because ultimately the RK is liable) and pass the charge on with an added admin charge.
If he/she wants to argue then the company can come back
and state "Gross Misconduct!"
"The employee has no right to commit a Criminal Offence in a Company Vehicle..."
Leave it well alone!!!
If my post was helpful don't forget to click the star!
Advice is offered freely, without liability and without prejudice.
If in any doubt professional legal advice should be sought.
I do not profess to be in any way legally trained, I am a big
oily truck driver and all I know has been learned within the
Consumer Action Group.
Sorry pat but notwithstanding the arguments about speeding in the 1st place they are adding to the fine automaticaly as the driver has no knowledge of when the hire company will receive the NIP. They fill it in without reference to the user. So the £20 IS in effect automatic.
Sorry, they are not adding to the fine as there is no guarantee that there will be a fine to be added to (if that makes sense). Although not for this particular case, it is perfectly feasible that the driver can go (and be found) not guilty. There is no penalty, and thus no penalty to be added to.
What the leasing company is doing, is making an administrative (not a penalty) charge for complying with the law (ie responding to the first S172 demand).
It is the fault of the driver's company for agreeing to this charge in the contract. It should have been struck out before signature. The leasing company cannot withhold the service (without being prosecuted for a criminal offence) so why agree to pay for it?
Sorry, they are not adding to the fine as there is no guarantee that there will be a fine to be added to (if that makes sense). Although not for this particular case, it is perfectly feasible that the driver can go (and be found) not guilty. There is no penalty, and thus no penalty to be added to.
What the leasing company is doing, is making an administrative (not a penalty) charge for complying with the law (ie responding to the first S172 demand).
It is the fault of the driver's company for agreeing to this charge in the contract. It should have been struck out before signature. The leasing company cannot withhold the service (without being prosecuted for a criminal offence) so why agree to pay for it?
The leasing company would have refused to lease the vehicle if the "employer" had refused to agree to the clause, the driver is still guilty of a criminal offence (by his own admission). I'ld leave this well alone and pay the fine (I beleive he has?), the employer can come at the employee for gross misconduct, i.e. committing a criminal offence in a company vehicle!
Seriously, i'ld leave this well alone and pay the fine for the (admitted) offence committed!
Regards - Dave.
If my post was helpful don't forget to click the star!
Advice is offered freely, without liability and without prejudice.
If in any doubt professional legal advice should be sought.
I do not profess to be in any way legally trained, I am a big
oily truck driver and all I know has been learned within the
Consumer Action Group.
Pat, he's admitted the offence! He's copped the points, we're arguing about the admin' charge...
Speeding is NOT Decriminalised, it's still a criminal offence.
I still say to be careful, the employer can still come back to this guy
and say that he's committed a Criminal Offence in "their" vehicle...
We should remember that this guys job might be at stake! Forget the unlawfulness of the financial penalty that's been passed on... The bottom
line for me is that this guy's committed a Criminal Offence in a company
vehicle, and if he wants to argue the toss then he can still be dragged in
for a serious disciplinary action!
?? Pay the 20 quid and let it lie ?? Or argue it ?? And *maybe* lose job ??
Of course, this guy could defend the 20 quid and lose everything in the
process, that's what i'm trying to say. Or pay the 20 quid on top of the fine & points and just get on with his life!
Having read many of your posts, I do believe that paying the 20 quid would be the lesser Tort in this instance, unless, and only unless, his employer would guarentee his employment in the event of action by him!
Best Regards - Dave.
If my post was helpful don't forget to click the star!
Advice is offered freely, without liability and without prejudice.
If in any doubt professional legal advice should be sought.
I do not profess to be in any way legally trained, I am a big
oily truck driver and all I know has been learned within the
Consumer Action Group.
Speeding is NOT Decriminalised, it's still a criminal offence.
I still say to be careful, the employer can still come back to this guy
and say that he's committed a Criminal Offence in "their" vehicle...
We should remember that this guys job might be at stake! Forget the unlawfulness of the financial penalty that's been passed on... The bottom
line for me is that this guy's committed a Criminal Offence in a company
vehicle, and if he wants to argue the toss then he can still be dragged in
for a serious disciplinary action!
I have never claimed that speeding is decriminalised - only that it is non-recordable.
As such it is a minor offence and I cannot believe that this is any circumstances is a serious breach of discipline.
The arugement is somewhat sterile as the OP has paid this already and as we have noted above, the leasing contract allows the leasing company to pass its admin costs onto the hirer. Presumably, the hirer has a signed piece of paper from the OP allowing salary deduction for this - if not, the deduction is unlawful.
If being caught speeding was a grounds for raising a disciplinary for gross misconduct then, as the employer has deducted the fee from their wages so knows about it, the OP would already have gone through the process.
If the employer had unlawfully deducted the fee from the OPs wages, this was challenged through a grievance and the employer subsequently raised a disciplinary for gross misconduct which resulted in the OPs dismissal I imagine that an employment tribunal wouldn't hesitate to find a case for unfair dismissal as this is completely unreasonable! Being guilty of a criminal offence, recordable or not, is not necessarily gross misconduct depending on the circumstances of your job.
Lloyds TSB, Total Charges £900, Claim Filed for £1379 - Settled
Sainsbury's Bank Credit Card, Total Charges £90 - Settled.
car leasing company speeding "fine"
from a roadside camera - my first one after driving for 25 years. No complaints about that, I wasnt paying attention and have now got 3 points and a £60 fine. I will try harder in future!
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Re: car leasing company speeding "fine"
Originally Posted by mendigo
