Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)

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  1. #1
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    Default Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest ***WON***

    Son of Steven4064 (let's call him Steven4065) sent SARicon on 14th December and got all his statements within 4-5 days but nothing else.

    Sent a reminder on 2 January pointing out that they had until 25th January to comply fully with his request. Letter copied to Data Protection Manager (Alex Lyons) in Edinburgh.

    From the statements it looks like the claim will be over 1500.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    We received the following reply yesterday:

    "DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 I write in response to your letter dated 2 January 2007.
    - Manual Intervention

    With reference to your request concerning any 'manual intervention' to the administrative charges debited, these charges have been processed in accordance with the terms and conditions of our current agreement with you as a result of the activity on your account. In the event that you breach the terms and conditions, we will take the appropriate action, contacting customers when appropriate, or handling customer enquiries regarding their account status. When a customer has raised a concern in relation to this process, the decision will be communicated to the customer and where appropriate noted on the account.

    If you have any problems please do not hesitate to contact us at the above address.
    Yours sincerely,

    Joyce E Tudor-
    Retail Regulatory Risk"




    Reminded MsTudor that they have util 23rd to answer the question properly or we'll apply for a court order. See what delaying tactics they try next.



  3. #3
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Quote Originally Posted by steven4064 View Post

    Reminded MsTudor that they have util 23rd to answer the question properly or we'll apply for a court order. See what delaying tactics they try next.
    I understand your frustration, but I wouldn't apply for a court order at this stage, if that is your intention. Stick to the plan, and follow the step-by-step guide contained within this forum. Any judge will need to see that you are being both 'fair and reasonable' when dealing with this matter. It will save a lot of red-faces in the long run
    Either way, good luck.

    SUCCESSESS
    NATWEST01&02 won over 4k

    See how
    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...3-natwest.html


    CURRENT CLAIMS
    HALIFAX03
    19-SEPT-07 APPLICATION TO HAVE STAY LIFTED
    02-OCT-07 APPLICATION REFUSED

    LLOYDS TSB04
    10-MAY-07 LBA

    ABBEY05
    19-SEPT-07 LBA


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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Would you credit it? (probably yes)

    They have replied by sending exaclty the same letter again! Anyway, muggins73, we'll take your advice and go straight to the initial request for payment, rather than applying to the court for the missing information (that there have been no manual interventions). Presumably, we can always refer to this unhelpfulness on the N1 (can we?), if we get to that.

    Steven

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    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
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    Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Letter from Stu this morning with a whole load of self-justification and a pile of brochures with terms and conditions for all sorts of Nat West offeings.

    After wading through the guff there is, as a gesture of goodwillicon, an offer of 1415.00 in Full and finalicon settlement.

    This is everything we asked for except for 157 interesticon and in response to our Initail Request for Repayment.

    Seems Nat West is on the run.

    Steven

    Steven

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    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
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    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    However...

    there is a sting in the tail. After waffling on about how wonderful they are in providing all their wonderful services for free they say,

    "Whilst many of our services are provided without a corresponding charge, we do make charges when customers, by their actions, request an increase to or the creation of an overdraft in excess of their previously agreed limit. By reviewing such requests we provide an additional service to customers, in many instances allowing items to be paid either by creating or increasing an overdraft. These charges can be avoided entirely by arranging suitable borrowing facilities in advance."

    Now that begs a whole load of questions: If I go overdrawn beacuse they slap an unlawful charge did I really 'request' it (perhaps I was just 'asking for it'). And do they really review my account every time I go overdrawn - I think not. (and if they do, how much does it cost - I bet we'd all like to know that!) And if they really do, why so coy about manual interventions?

    Then the sting...

    "Any charges that properly accrue in the future will be applied to your account in line with our published tariff and in accordance with your agreement with the bank. Should you be unwilling to accept any such charges, then we may need to consider if we are prepared to continue to provide you with your existing banking facilities. Instead we may offer you a simple account that does not offer borrowing facilities or other services that can result in charges."

    Well of course, I don't mind (well almost not) paying charges that 'properly accrue', but that's the whole point, isn't it?

    We were thinking of accepting the offer (even though it doesn't include interesticon) but it seems in so doing we would effectively be agreeing to pay their unlawful charges in the future. On another thread NATTIE said we couldn't sign away our rights - quite right too. So, how should we proceed?

    I am beginningto think we should carry on, accept the offer as a partial offer only, and go for the rest so that we get an unconditional offer. What does anyone else think?

    Steven

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    My Wins

    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
    Won unconditionally August 2007
    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

    Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Hi

    This is exactly the same letter as I got. I asked for charges plus contractual at 29%. They offered charges, but no interesticon, so I have written back offering to accept charges plus s69.

    Awaiting response.

    This is a new tactic by Nat West and does have some implications especially for new claims. It will be up to each individual to decide if they think it is worth going through the whole court process to try to get s69 or contractual and I get the feeling reading thro the posts on this site that the courts are not always sympathetic to claims for contractual.

    If you are confident of your claim then you have to decide if the time and effort is worth it for the interest!

    This gets interesting!

    Bicester1

    MBNA WON 623
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    Nat West CC Won 525.08
    Nat West Bank Won 2346.60

    Lloyds PPI LBA
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    I think that getting the interesticon or not is now secondary. The implications of them trying to get us to agree to future charges is the sinister element that has come in. This also seems to be a new tactic.

    It will be that rather then the interest that makes us press on I think so that we can get an offer wit hno strings attached.

    Steven

    Steven

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    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
    Won unconditionally August 2007
    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

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  9. #9
    NATTIE
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Ah, so that is how the new account I heard of a few months ago is going to work, No direct debits and no standing orders allowed and only atm withdrawal card. Now i did think it was for this reason and now i see it in black and white. By the way the first bit of the letter, re service is part of new t&c's effective from 1st February 2007


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    So the booklet they sent me (NWB 3773 December 2006) contains new T&Cs. It lays out all the unlawful charges VERY clearly (p12) and very helpfully.

    NATTIE, what is your opinion on post 8. Am I right to continue to get an offer with no strings. I know what they are trying to do but, surely, getting us to effectively sign to accept the charges in the future doesn't make them any more lawful. And there is an implied 'or else' in there too. Or else what?

    Also, the sentence about reviewing informal overdrafticon requests is obviously nonsense. But further, it is an attempt to deceive us into believing they do something for the money they take. I think that one could argue that the two things (deceptive claim to provide a 'service' and the attempt to 'persuade' us to accept the charges 'or else') probably constitute an abuse of position and hence are an offence under s4 of the Fraud Act 2006, or are dangerously close to doing so.

    I am thinking of writing to the CEO of Natwesticon along these lines and pointing out that his staff (Stu et al) are putting him in a position where he personally could be prosecuted under s12 of the same act.

    Steven

    Using CAG Toolbar will generate much needed income - Download Here

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    My Wins

    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
    Won unconditionally August 2007
    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

    Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

    Please note, I will not give advice by PM. Please
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Hi

    Yes like the Fraud Act! Would be very interesting to see the response.

    Bicester1


    MBNAicon WON 623
    GM Card Won 580
    Barclaycard lbaicon
    Nat West Bank offer received negotiating
    Nat West CC offer received negotiating
    Lloydsicon PPIicon prelim


    Any advice is given informally. I am not a lawyer. Consult a trained professional if unsure of your legal position. If my advice is helpful please tip my scales!


    Bicester1

    MBNA WON 623
    GM Card Won 580
    Nat West CC Won 525.08
    Nat West Bank Won 2346.60

    Lloyds PPI LBA
    Barclaycard defence received. Trial date 30th July. Barclays missed deadline for servicing and filing of their bundle! Going to try for strikeout or summary disposal
    HBOS about to issue N1
    LLoys Bank LBA

    I am not a lawyer. Get trained professional advice if unsure of your legal position. If my advice is helpful please tip my scales!
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  12. #12
    NATTIE
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    so sir fred Goodwin head of RBSicon GRoup plc limited. The non formal request is in the new T&C's leaflet sent out in statement insert November December and January. My personal opinion has always been that contractual interesticon is a difficult one to argue but each to their own. You can cross out conditions and return it to Natwesticon but always keep a copy


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    The interesticon on our claim is the actual interest charged by Natwesticon on the overdraft when the overdraft consisted entirely of charges. That doesn't seem unreasonable. We have certainly not claimed contractual interest on all teh charges whatever as some are trying.

    Steven

    Using CAG Toolbar will generate much needed income - Download Here

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    My Wins

    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
    Won unconditionally August 2007
    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

    Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    The interesticon adds up to over 150.

    Would they insist I repayed 150? Yes they would.

    lbaicon went today.

    Steven

    Using CAG Toolbar will generate much needed income - Download Here

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    My Wins

    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
    Won unconditionally August 2007
    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

    Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

    Please note, I will not give advice by PM. Please
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  15. #15
    Basic Account Holder bailey54 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Have today sent request for payment to Natwesticon. 1175 for me and a seperate letter 1985 for my other half. Will let you know...


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Quick update. Sent letter before actionicon on 17 Feb but unfortunately (stupid me!!!) left the date the same as for the initial request for payment - 27 January. Nat West responded with an identical response to the one they sent in reposnse to the initial request except that it said, "Thank you for your letter of 25 January..."

    So we have degenerated into complete confusion!

    We have decided that the best thing to do is to ignore the last 2 letters and send the LBA again with the correct date. The 14 days now ends on 31st March.

    Steven

    Using CAG Toolbar will generate much needed income - Download Here

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    My Wins

    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
    Won unconditionally August 2007
    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

    Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

    Please note, I will not give advice by PM. Please
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  17. #17
    Basic Account Holder bailey54 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    We (hubby & I) both sent initial request letters 20.02.07. Hubby got an offer last week 1700 (90 less than claimed) and has accepted. They haven't replied to any of my letters so sent lbaicon 7th March. Think they are bogged down and won't have noticed your duplicate!


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    Let's hope we don't just go round in circles.

    On another tack, (see http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...15a-there.html) I am thinking of sending the follwoing to the CEO of RBOS group (owners of Nat West):

    Sir Fred Goodwin
    The Royal Bank of Scotlandicon plc,
    36 St Andrew Square,
    Edinburgh,
    EH2 2YB



    Dear Sir Fred,

    My son has recently been in correspondence with the Customer Relations department of Nat West with a view to reclaiming charges imposed on his account for unauthorised overdrafts and refused direct debiticon payments, which he, along with many others, believe to be unlawful. In his latest response, Stuart Higley says the following,

    Whilst many of our services are provided without a corresponding charge, we do make charges when customers, by their actions, request an increase to or the creation of an overdrafticon in excess of their previously agreed limit. By reviewing such requests we provide an additional service to customers, in many instances allowing items to be paid either by creating or increasing an overdraft.”

    The Nat West booklet NWB3773 spells out that a charge is applied to the account of a customer who makes an “informal request” for an overdraft by inadvertently going overdrawn, etc, or indeed by going overdrawn because of a charge imposed on the account by the bank itself. The above paragraph implies that someone reviews this “informal request” as part of the services offered by the bank. Now everyone knows that no one does any such thing. All that happens is that the computer automatically imposes the penalty charge. This paragraph is dishonest, and the dishonesty is an attempt to justify an unlawful act (the imposition of a penalty for breach of contract) by the bank.

    I would like to draw your attention to section 4 of the Fraud Act 2006, which say that an offence has been committed if a person

    (a) occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act against, the financial interests of another person,
    (b) dishonestly abuses that position, and
    (c) intends, by means of the abuse of that position—
    (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or
    (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

    Section 12 of the same Act says that if the offence is committed by a corporate body with the consent of “a director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body Corporate” then that officer is also guilty of an offence and liable to be proceeded against.

    Now it seems to me that Mr Higley’s letter could be putting you and other directors of Royal Bank of Scotlandicon group in a position where you might be open to prosecution under this Act since Nat West is obviously in a position where it is expected to safeguard customers’ financial interests and, as I pointed out above, Mr Higley’s letter constitutes dishonest abuse of that position with a view to making a gain for the bank and causing a loss for the customer.

    I felt that you ought to be made aware, if you are not already, of the possible consequences of actions by your staff.

    Yours sincerely



    Steven4064

    Any comments anyone?





    Steven

    Using CAG Toolbar will generate much needed income - Download Here

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    GE Money Won unconditionally May 2007
    NatWest
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    Brighthouse Won unconditionally August 2007
    Goldfish Won unconditionally April 2008 (including CI on the basis of Sempra)
    Clydesdale Financial Services (now BPF) Won unconditionally February 2008

    Any opinions are without prejudice & without liability. Do not take any legal action on my advice alone. Almost everything I know concerning the law I learned from this site.

    Please note, I will not give advice by PM. Please
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    steven4064
    I've got a comment that may or not be of consequential help I dont know, but reference your third paragraph, I would think that their staement may be hard to prove as dishonest, but I think you would have a better chance of proving "Negligent miss-statements" which is covered by the Libel Act, under the New Libel Act it is no longer necssary to prove damage. Have a look at the New Act it might be useful it might not.

    I think they are making negligent miss statements.

    sparkie1723


  20. #20
    NATTIE
    Guest

    Default Re: Son of Steven4064 vs NatWest

    steven if only i could say what was on my mind, but a simple do not waste the printer ink cartridge



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