Thread: Log Book Loans took my car....

After receiving a notice telling me I had arrears on my car payments I then arranged to pay the arrears and bring the account up to date which I did. I then fell into arrears again a couple of months later and had started to pay extra on top of my payments. Last week I came out of the house to go to work and found my car clamped. I telephoned the number on the windscreen notice and was informed that my arrears were £270 and if I wanted to stop the car being taken away then I needed to pay £980. Obviously this amount of money was not available to me and lo and behold an hour later a recovery agent turns up to take the car.

The attitude of LBL was that once they have issued a recovery notice they do not have to issue a further one if you fall into arrears again. I would query the legitimacy of this and also the suddenness of the repo, i.e. without warning.

What can I do about this???

chris

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The immobilisation of the vehicle is the final notice abiet an abrupt one!, the one hour later is in keeping with guidelines that state, a debtor is normally given a mininium of 1 hours notice that the vehicle will be removed at any time after expirey of that period.

VJR Who's guidelines, their guidelines? Nothing of what they did is lawful.

Hedgehog contact trading standards & report what has happened. They will be interested & they must have quite a large dossier on this firm by now. In addition you need to see a solicitor asap before they flog it to one of their mates.

Send a SAR demanding 'true' copies of all paper work & in particular any 'bill of sale' they may claim to have.

Also if you can find out which auction it is being sold at you can take steps to secure it by notifying them of YOUR lien & that ownership is in dispute.

Also contact HPI & let them know ownership is in dispute & in order to protect themselves they should place a caution on file

Lets know what happens

It's their choice..............reall y!

I'm afraid I know only to well. As for my previous comments we will see if in the fulness of time they are correct. Watch this space.

As for their 'bill of sale/agreement' having seen one don't get me started.

If you really want to help, as I'm sure you do, why don't you tell us about the website, name etc:

I really DO know what I'm talking about.

As for HPI it may not be a normal part of their practice or procedure but I can assure you that if they should ignore such information & report the vehicle as being without lien or encumbrance they could find themselves the subject of damages litigation

Oh gods, kiddiwinks, please don't start a row again... hedgehog, do as JonCris suggests, he's dealt with 'em before I seem to recall, with regard to disputing the auction and sending off a S.A.R - (Subject access request) with a £10 cheque/PO to get all info held on you by LBL. The template's in the library, modify it to your circumstances. When you have your info you'll be in a better position to see why they took the action they took, whether it was lawful or not, and how much money you can claim back (£900 for unclamping a car? Whaa?).

There are a LOT of threads on LBL and their dodgy practices. Have a read of those to familiarise yourself with what to expect from them, and get that SAR sent off.

Have just been sent copies of my paperwork relating to the incident with the car repo. Can anyone here take a look at them for legality? They are hassling me for repayment of an outstanding balance??

I have just sent you a PM with some info

i trying to plaster this message to as many people as possible. its a wee bit technical. if the thugs sorry baliffs come to the door they should have a visible blue badge with the SIA logo on it + photo. SIA stands for Security industry Authority this a legal requirement that they must have. if they dont ask them if have a licence dispensation number (this is what they get when they are waiting on their badge to arrive) if the dont have ldn then contact the local police *******THEY ARE WORKING ILLEGAL************ sometimes the police are slow to get involved as they think it is a private matter. Quote - the security industry act 2001. also contact the SIA they have the legal powers to prosecute and fine the individual and company.
the SIA has been in England and Wales for approx. 2 years and only in scotland a couple of months. i had the baliffs out at 0500 to clamp the car back out at 0800 to lift and when i mentioned the SIA they gave me till 1700 to get a reduced figure from £900 to £500

Hi Everyone

I have a way to get back at Log Book Loans (“LBL”) and Mobile Money (“MM”). I assure you, this will work - I am a lawyer.

I have read the various threads with some horror at the tactics used by LBL and MM and this is my reason for posting.

Unfortunately, first some bad new – the loans they issue, and the way they secure their interest over a vehicle, via a Bill of Sale (“BOS”), is completely legal, if they follow the correct procedure. I have reviewed a LBL case and they seem to be doing everything correctly; I have not looked a MM, but I would presume they are also following the correct procedure. Furthermore, despite some posts that suggest the contrary, they can take possession of goods which are secured by way of a BOS without a court order.

Sorry, it gets worse before it gets better – if you are unfortunate enough to purchase a vehicle which has a chattel mortgage (what the BOS effectively creates) attached to it then, even though you are an innocent party, the vehicle can still legally be taken off you without a court order.

I am surprised that I have seen another lawyer in a press article suggest that this is illegal – he referrers to innocent parties purchasing vehicles with outstanding hire purchase (“HP”) agreements and, what he refers to as “other loans” (although he does not elaborate on what other loans are), and states that the an innocent purchaser obtain the goods with good legal tile. He is completely correct in relation to HP agreements as s27 Hire Purchase Act 1964, as substituted by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, provides that an innocent purchaser without notice (ie in non legal speak - a private individual who buys something not knowing that the item was subject to a HP agreement) takes the goods purchased with good legal title. However, there is no such provision for security taken by way of a BOS. In fact, the common law position was amended by s27 and a good analogy to explain why the law works this way is to consider stolen property. If your car was stolen and sold to an innocent party do you think that if the police managed to locate the vehicle you should not be able to re-claim the car – obviously I would think most of you would think that if something is stolen from you then you can take it back once located – and this is exactly the legal position. The general rule in law is that someone can only give good legal title if they themselves posses it, and, unless there is some legislative exception, this rules applies to the sale and purchase of all chattels (in simple terms, chattels is legal speak for property which is not land and buildings – sorry if I sound patronising but I know there are some reader who are not as legally conversant as other and I just want them to understand what I am saying).

I have read a number of other posts that incorrectly state the law and give false hope but I don’t have the time to deal with each issue raised.

Unfortunately, in my opinion it will be very difficult to legally challenge LGL or MM based on the BOS.

However, now for the good news. To operate within the law lenders require a consumer credit licence. This is issued by the Office of Fair Trading (“OFT”) and recent legislative changes have given the OFT significantly more discretion and powers in who to issue consumer credit licences to and, where appropriate, to revoke such licences.

My proposal is that we work together to get the consumer credit licences of LBL and MM removed and this is how to do it:

The law in relation to credit advertising was changed recently by the Consumer Credit (Advertising) Regulation 2004 (the “Regulations”). I will not bore you with the details but the OFT have issued guidance to lenders on the interpretation of these regulations. Basically a lender must publish a typical APR where, amongst other things, they offer credit to people with a poor credit history or where they offer an incentive.

The OFT have stated that terms such as “No Credit Checks” or “Super Fast Loans”, or similar, will trigger the requirements to publish a typical APR. See para 8.16 of the following guidance: http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...dit/oft746.pdf

I have seen advertisement placed by both MM and LBL that contravene the Regulations by not stating a typical APR. I saw one today – they are not difficult to find.

This is what I propose that everyone does – look out for MM and LBL adverts. If they say anything like “fast loans”, “no credit checks”, “CCJ’s - no problem”, “Cash Loans within 30 minutes” etc then they must quote a typical APR. If they don’t then they have broken the law.

Report every breach of these regulations to your local trading standards (a letter or e-mail is best, but phone if you don’t have time). If enough complaints are received then the OFT will have to consider revoking their consumer credit licences. What’s even better, the directors of LBL and MM will face criminal prosecutions and convictions as breaching the Regulations is actually a criminal offence.

If enough people take action, as I have suggested, then LBL and MM will lose their consumer credit licences and this will stop them trading – in short, there is more than one way to skin a cat!

I hope this has been helpful and I wish you all luck.

I took out a loan last June. Like others I was given a 5wk payment holiday. However the weekly amount did not add up to the 5wk sum. I was advised if I paid the loan off before the first payment was due (which I assumed was at the end of the 5wks) there would be no interest. When I called on the 3rd week £800 had been added!
I have been to the C.A.B etc as I never received termination rights in the post and no responses to any letters (just after taking out the loan my husband was made redundant and we could not afford the £119 pw loan - my wage was £749 per month and our rent was £600 - LBL saw the wage slips and rent agreement etc and were happy to lend in my sole name). CAB advised that the loan could be null and void and to offer the car as Full and final settlement but they were unwilling to accept that.
We awoke on Tuesday morning to find that the car had been clamped in the night. We contacted the police who had not been informed (as the notice on the car stated) and advised that it had been clamped illegally, however they were unwilling to get involved as it was a civil matter.
In the end we let the recovery agents take the car (LBL have our spare key anyway). We have raised a query to the high court to see if anything has been lodged as advised. However, as in Scotland I believe that they have to get a sheriff court action?
We had to obtain a duplicate log book last year in order to retax the vehicle (and correct the address as when the loan was taken out we had only just moved so the logbook showed the previous address). What we were wondering is, due to the questionably legality of the contract and actions, can we go along to BCA and request our car back? My husband is the legal owner (he has documentation showing he purchased it), I was just the registered keeper for tax/insurance purposes. He never signed anything with LBL.

It would seem that there is many ways to 'skin a cat' and certainly the post regarding the advertising issues and APR negligence is just one such way.

LBL can also be taken to task as regards their breach of the regulations pertaining to the BOS not being in the prescribed manner as laid down within the BOS Act 1878 - the breach is that the documents are not correctly executed......

In direct contravention to OFT guidelines they also assert ambiguosly that the documents are registered, but what they do not tell you is that the document may be incorrectly executed. They should give you clear and transparent information.

They also assert that they are members of the fos - this does not apply to any Agreement that was entered into before 6th April 2007 - and as they are not members of any other organisation - these agreements appear to have no port for redress should you wish to escalate a complaint. In these instances - I would recommend taking the matter direct to the OFT.

Additionally, there have been many instances where default notices do not give the full 7 days notice and I beleive the CCA 2006 now affords 14 days notice instead of 7 days

Arrears letters are supposed to be sent prior to a default notice and where LBL fail to do this, again the CCA 2006 at section 86D - 3 states

"the creditor or owner shall not be entitled to enforce the agreement during the period of non-compliance" (this means they cannot legally take your car)

section 86D - 4 states

"the debtor or hirer shall have no liability to pay" (confirms that as you have no liability they cannot enforce the agreement by taking your car)

They are also supposed to send you an annual statements in addition to arrears letters.

The idea is that when you get an arrears letter, you can ask the courts to give you more time to pay - they have denied you this civil liberty by the sounds of things.

Also in taking your car without notice, notice includes writing to you to let you know the day and time they intend to collect the vehicle - this notice is to give you time to decide what to do - the fact they turned up within the hour, forcing you to come up with a large sum of money in this way is not acceptable to their governing body - the OFT

The OFT publish the guidelines on thier website for all Licensed lenders such as LBL and clients to see how they should be treated when they are in default - anything outside these guidelines is not acceptable.

Harassment of debtors is a punishable offence as can be seen in the Administration of Justice Act 1970.

I would also suggest that the debt collection practises of LBL more fall under the following laws:

Aggrevated Trespass - Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 - s-68
Harassment of a person in their home - Criminal Justice & Police Act 2001, s 42
Threats to cause criminal damage - criminal damage Act 1971 s2
Breach of the Peace - Magistrates Court Act 1980 s.115
Intentional harassment, alarm & distress - public Order Act 1986 s4a

Take heart in the fact that the OFT have not been a sitting duck, when it comes to the practises of LBL - and on the 13 March 09, have minded LBL that they are considering the revocation of thier licence.......

21 days and a possible appeal is all you will have to wait before justice is done.

If I were you I would immediately send a 'report' of what has happened to you directly to the OFT by email enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk even if they do not respond to you directly, you must trust that the information will be put to good use.

Be minded that when you are in default on a loan, where a 'collection agent' comes to collect the car, they do not need to have a SIA licence.

Also SIA licences are not held by Companies - they are held and registered to the individual.

LBL will inform any police officer of this fact when you report that the collection agent has no SIA licence - and this disarms the police power to make a lawful arrest and advise you that it is a civil matter.

I beleive it becomes a criminal matter when LBL seeks to enforce on an account where the debt is disputed and has not been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties......

You should be able in this instance to rely on 'the Harassment of a person in their home' - criminal justice & police Act 2001 may help along with laws pertaining to 'Harassment of debtors' - Administration of Justice Act 1970 s 40

Also - 'Breach of the peace' - Magistrates Court Act 1980 s115

If you quote these Acts to a police officer, he may be able to rely ont these laws or one of them to abate the action of a collection agent by making a verbal undertaking between the parties that the collection agent can take no action to enforce the debt without first resolving the dispute.

My advise would be; that at the instance you are in dispute with Log Book Loans you should inform both the local police and the OFT of a possible 'breach of the peace' on a loan in dispute, and let LBL know you have taken this action. the oft email address is enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk

This should let all parties know that you are aware of your civil right which is that where LBL have not resolved the matter or cannot resolve the matter, they must follow legal protocol, and storming in to take your car would not be legal protocol.

Originally Posted by applecart

Be minded that when you are in default on a loan, where a 'collection agent' comes to collect the car, they do not need to have a SIA licence.

Also SIA licences are not held by Companies - they are held and registered to the individual.

LBL will inform any police officer of this fact when you report that the collection agent has no SIA licence - and this disarms the police power to make a lawful arrest and advise you that it is a civil matter.

I beleive it becomes a criminal matter when LBL seeks to enforce on an account where the debt is disputed and has not been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties......

You should be able in this instance to rely on 'the Harassment of a person in their home' - criminal justice & police Act 2001 may help along with laws pertaining to 'Harassment of debtors' - Administration of Justice Act 1970 s 40

Also - 'Breach of the peace' - Magistrates Court Act 1980 s115

If you quote these Acts to a police officer, he may be able to rely ont these laws or one of them to abate the action of a collection agent by making a verbal undertaking between the parties that the collection agent can take no action to enforce the debt without first resolving the dispute.

My advise would be; that at the instance you are in dispute with Log Book Loans you should inform both the local police and the OFT of a possible 'breach of the peace' on a loan in dispute, and let LBL know you have taken this action. the oft email address is enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.uk

This should let all parties know that you are aware of your civil right which is that where LBL have not resolved the matter or cannot resolve the matter, they must follow legal protocol, and storming in to take your car would not be legal protocol.

to applecart
you have some fab advice on your thread but am wondering if you can help me my loan is with mobile money and they have been pahoning constantly for their last payment have spoken to a debt managment comp and they want all the paper work that i have signed and when i told mm they were ok but had a message on my voice mail about 5 mins after i phoned them asking me not to go down that route and that we could come to another aggrement but i dont realy want to do this as i know that they will try and push me in to sighning another contract unsure what to do for the best ???????

Hi tottys

Thank you for your kind words - apologies for not getting back to you sooner... I hope these few lines are not too late and you have managed to hold your corner?....

Let me start by advising you that ........On their letterheaded paper you should be able to find their Company Registration Number.

Then you can use this information to check if they are licenced by the OFT via the following link:

www2.crw.gov.uk/pr/default.aspx

Simply enter the Companies Registration Number where it asks for it and then press 'send'

If they are registered, (as I suspect they should be) then, all the guidelines that apply to Log Book Loans will apply to them also....

This means that you are protected from harassment whilst your account is in arrears, in fact if you have paid more than a third of the monies due under the Agreement, they cannot enforce the Agreement (irrespective of it being secured by your vehicle via a Bill of Sale, it does not matter that it is not a HP Agreement, it is still a conditional sale agreement as referred to as such in the CCA1974 under, section 90; unless they take you to court - this section comes under "Further Restrictions of remedies for Default")

If they are registered with the OFT, where you have decided to take the matter to a third party for help, they should not stop you from doing so, I am attaching a copy of the OFT guidelines on debt collection for you to 'arm' yourself.

It is a 'nice' gesture though that they are offering to handle the matter 'in-house' - pity they did not consider their fiscal duty before you felt the need to take the matter further - which remains an issue for us all - they have no idea of the effect of their actions on what the FSA refers to as 'the customers experience'.

I hope this gives you a little peace of mind at this time Tottys - if I can be of any further help let me know.

Originally Posted by applecart

Hi tottys

Thank you for your kind words - apologies for not getting back to you sooner... I hope these few lines are not too late and you have managed to hold your corner?....

Let me start by advising you that ........On their letterheaded paper you should be able to find their Company Registration Number.

Then you can use this information to check if they are licenced by the OFT via the following link:

www2.crw.gov.uk/pr/default.aspx

Simply enter the Companies Registration Number where it asks for it and then press 'send'

If they are registered, (as I suspect they should be) then, all the guidelines that apply to Log Book Loans will apply to them also....

This means that you are protected from harassment whilst your account is in arrears, in fact if you have paid more than a third of the monies due under the Agreement, they cannot enforce the Agreement (irrespective of it being secured by your vehicle via a Bill of Sale, it does not matter that it is not a HP Agreement, it is still a conditional sale agreement as referred to as such in the CCA1974 under, section 90; unless they take you to court - this section comes under "Further Restrictions of remedies for Default")

If they are registered with the OFT, where you have decided to take the matter to a third party for help, they should not stop you from doing so, I am attaching a copy of the OFT guidelines on debt collection for you to 'arm' yourself.

It is a 'nice' gesture though that they are offering to handle the matter 'in-house' - pity they did not consider their fiscal duty before you felt the need to take the matter further - which remains an issue for us all - they have no idea of the effect of their actions on what the FSA refers to as 'the customers experience'.

I hope this gives you a little peace of mind at this time Tottys - if I can be of any further help let me know.

thank you for your message applecart it is very much appreciated.have not mannaged to sort anything out yet today have been busy with the family will be looking at this web site you gave me tonight though.mm have been phoning me constantly and e mailing me today so will have to sort it now,do you think it makes a diff cos they have not got my log book????any advice is welcome thanks again for all your help

Hi Totty

May I ask - do you have a Bill of Sale?

From memory..... Mobile Money don't go via the Bill of Sale route, that's if my memory serves me well......

If they are still taking the Log Book to secure the loan, then, yes, it should/may have some standing.....

I'm intrigued now... I think I will do some more research on Mobile Money - just to jog my memory further - my findings might help you further.

Leave it with me.... I will come back to you...

: )

Originally Posted by applecart

Hi Totty

May I ask - do you have a Bill of Sale?

From memory..... Mobile Money don't go via the Bill of Sale route, that's if my memory serves me well......

If they are still taking the Log Book to secure the loan, then, yes, it should/may have some standing.....

I'm intrigued now... I think I will do some more research on Mobile Money - just to jog my memory further - my findings might help you further.

Leave it with me.... I will come back to you...

: )

hi applecart
thanks for all your help you are a star.
yes i have something saying that says its the bill of sale have one white copy and am sure i have a yellow one to (like a carbon copy) but i dont think they have realised that i had the log book have now told them now that i scrapped the car and of corse i had to send that off to the dvla.mabey thats why they r being so nice now or is that just wishful thinking lol
again thanks for everything

Hi Totty

I have looked at the Company Registered details of Mobile Money and got a general idea of how they charge against the loan.

I couldn't find as much bad press about them as I found about Log Book Loans - which appears to be a good sign....at least a sign that they work hard to keep 'bad press' at bay : )

Evidently though if they are harassing you - I can advise.... that Mobile Money are definately regulated by the OFT... and they can be held to 'book'.

I found that their licence No IS 455568

see attachment for full details of their registration.

I looked at their Website - disturbingly, the very issue that most seem to worry about with companies like MM and LBL in their FAQ's -

question No 12 was

'what happens if I don't pay?'

The answer shows as

'We work very closely with any client who is making an effort to repay their debt, however if there is no willingness or absolutely no intention of repayment then your car will be sold by us to recover the amount owed'

Bearing in mind that they do not transfer the V5 from your name to their own at the time of entering into an agreement with you - it is unlikely that they would be able to enforce the sale of your car legally - it also leaves the mind to wonder, what actions they are likely to take in order to sell your car under your nose (so's to speak) without following the regulations laid down by the OFT?

I personally would send them an email - copying in the OFT: enquiries@oft.gsi.gov.co. uk and, advising them that you are aware of the OFT guidelines on debt collecting and you would thank them to stop phoning you or contacting you and allow you time to consider how you intend to repay the arrears and offer to get back to them within 7 days - make it 21 days if you need.... after all harassment does have a terrible effect on ones state of mind and you need time to clear your head I'm sure.....

Hope this saves you some time Totty....

and sets you up ready to take action for tomorrow.....

If I can be of any further help let me know. : )

Hi Totty.... : )

Again from memory... I don't think that what you have is a Bill of Sale, it more sounds like a normal Agreement - what's foxing me now; is you say it states 'Bill of Sale' - I sure would love to have a look at it if possible?

If you can post it on the site - that would help....

But see my previous information.

If you have scrapped the car; as you would be the legal owner and keeper this should be your choice - a Bill of Sale may not have left you with the same legal position - depending on it's overall execution and registration.

I assume you have paid more than a third of the loan back based on your previous post - in this instance if you default under a CCA1974 Agreement, the company would have to take you to court and win a case against you before they could legally repossess your vehicle see section 90 of the CCA 1974

But you've scrapped the car - so I shouldn't worry.....

What you must do however, now that I have more info.... is to definately make sure you involve the CAB for further advise - do not deal soley with MM on your own - you can sign a form authorising the CAB to manage the situation - where the CAB find that you cannot afford to pay - they should be able to arrange a small token payment of say £1.00 to the creditor until your financial position changes.

MM will be aware of this that is why they do not want you to involve a third party - they also do not want their reputation to follow that of LBL I can imagine - but you must stand by your guns....

If you can't afford it, then you have remedy and if a £1.00 is all you can afford to pay - and they don't like it - then they should take you to court if it is legal for them to do so. If not, then they basically have to accept the law for what it is and it's effects on their business.

If I can be of any further help - or you need to have someone to bounce thoughts off - feel free to contact me at any time : )

p.s - I tried to 'upload' MM company reg details - but it didn't work for me - I was saving it from the www and it hasn't appeared - but you can still access it if you need to from the previous link I gave you.