Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Hi Mcuth.
I found i highlighted each charge on the provided sheets of paper, but now in hindsight i think its best to actually make fresh list of the charge /date and amount.
As with Abbey any bank could start asking for the break down of charges.
Vamps interest sreadsheet is brilliant for this, It would have saved me alot of time if i had done it from my intial checking.
Lloyds TSB Bank PLC
Customer Care
125 Colmore Row
Birmingham
B3 3SF
By Royal Mail Special Delivery
Dear Sir/Madam
CURRENT ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXX (Sort Code XX-XX-XX) CREDIT CARD ACCOUNT NUMBER XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
REQUEST FOR REFUND OF CHARGES
My request
I am writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my account since inception. I now understand that the regime of fees which you have applied to my account in relation to direct debit/standing order refusal, over limit, late payment and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full Breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.
I am of the view that your charges represent a penalty and are therefore unrecoverable at Common Law. In the Scottish case of Castaneda and Others v. Clydebank Engineering and Shipbuilding Co., Ltd. (1904) 12 SLT 498; the House of Lords held that a contractual party can only recover damages for actual or liquidated losses incurred from a breach of contract. This is also the position in English law: Wilson v Love [1896]; Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79; Ford Motor Co v Armstrong [1915]; Bridge v Campbell Discount Co. Ltd [1962]; Murray v Leisureplay [2004].
Your charges do not reflect any actual loss; instead they appear to represent a lucrative profit-making scheme. In
particular, charges were applied after I entered into transactions without sufficient funds in my account and also when I have gone overdrawn without authorisation. The actual loss is the cost of automatically sending me a computer generated letter. I would respectfully submit that is valued at no more than 50 pence.
UK banks have recently given evidence to the House of Commons Treasury Committee on how bank charges are
calculated: "The costs are going to pay for all the people we have who pursue debt, collect debt, speak to customers and chase payments. The way these charges are arrived at is by taking these total costs and making some assumptions about the volume that is going to come through to arrive at the individual charges" (2nd report, 25 January 2005, paragraph 50).
Accordingly, the charges applied to my account are not a reasonable pre-estimate of your loss in relation to my account. No-one has had to look at my account or telephone me. No one has had to collect anything. Your
charges would appear to represent a device to recover global losses (for example, loan defaulters, bad debt write off, including commercial lending in, and outwith, the UK).
On a separate note, your charges appear to represent an unfair term of contract which is contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (SI. 1999/2083). My account falls within the scope of Regulation 5 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 as I am a consumer. Your charges constitute an unfair
penalty under reference to paragraph 1(e) of schedule 2 of the said regulations:
‘Indicative and non-exhaustive list of terms which may be regarded asunfair - 1. Terms which have the
object of effect of - (e) requiring any consumer who fails his obligation to pay a disproportionately high
sum in compensation’.
0n 26 July 2005, the OFT stated that 'a charge is likely to be disproportionately high if it is more than a court would
be likely to award if the lender sued the cardholder for breach of contract'. Because your charges include a large
profit margin, in addition to actual loss, they are unrecoverable as an unfair term in contract. I believe that your charges require me to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation for incurring transactions which were
ultimately declined by an automated computer system. In addition, it is unfair to require me to subsidise your global debt recovery costs and debt write-off.
It has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary..
Your responsibilities
I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.
I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary. I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now
What I require
I calculate that, as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £269.00. As advised in my DPA request, I am also reclaiming the statutory £10.00 DPA fee. This makes a total of £279.00. I request that you refund this amount in full and enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter.
Targets to resolve this matter
I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and write on the assumption that you will prefer to do this rather than merely respond with standard letters and leaflets.
You have 10 working days, from receipt of this letter (i.e. by Wednesday 5th July 2006), to reply unconditionally accepting my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.
If you do not respond, or do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a further letter before action allowing a further 10 working days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.
After that will be no further communication from myself and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.
I look forward to hearing from you by return.
Yours faithfully,
Cheers
Michael
Please note that the right to reproduce any part of any post I make on this forum is restricted under copyright law.
Received a reply from the "Customer Service Recovery Centre" today:
5th July 2006
Dear {mcuth}
Thank you for getting in touch with us. I am sorry you are unhappy over your account charges.
Like any business, we do make a charge for some of our extra services. When a customer doesn't have enough in their account to cover a payment, this always means additional work. We must either make the payment for you via an overdraft or send the payment request back. Either way, it has to happen speedily. We feel it's only fair to charge for the extra work involved.
Of course, it is only fair, too, that we're completely open about any charged-for services before you take them up. That's why we take care to provide every new customer with the latest guide to our charges. You can also get up-to-date details about fees and borrowing rates at all our branches, via our helpline and on our website.
Just as importantly, we do everything we can to help our customers avoid charges altogether.
I'm sure you'll know how easy it is to keep a running check on how much is in your account. You're free to get an up-to-date balance at any of our cash machines, over the phone, online and nowadays even by text to your mobile.
If you know a payment is going to take you over the limit, you're welcome to see if we can raise your limit - and we can usually give you an answer straightaway. You might know, too, that we don't usually charge fees if it's the first day in 12 months that you've gone overdrawn without agreeing it with us beforehand. And we never charge an overdraft excess fee more than three times in any one month, however many times you go over your limit.
You've mentioned the new guidelines from the Office of Fair Trading on credit card default charges. We don't agree with the OFT's thinking on this and we're still talking it through with them. But the important point is that the guidelines only concern "default" charges. The fees we charge for going over an overdraft limit and for returned payments are not any kind of default penalty. They are fixed standard prices for the service we provide in these situations. So according to our legal experts, the OFT's guidelines on credit card default charges do not in any way apply.
I do hope you can see that we make our charging system as fair as possible - and why I cannot agree to cancel your charges. I have arranged for a cheque to be sent to you to cover the £10 DPA fee.
Our Card Services department will respond to you regarding the credit card charges that you have incurred.
In case you haven't recieved a copy of our leaflet called "How to voice your concerns" I've enclosed one with my letter. This tells you all you need to know about resolving your complaint with us.
If you're still unhappy, please don't hesitate to tell me what more you would like me to do. If we cannot agree a solution at that point, I can help you refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service for independent review.
So long as you feel I've dealt satisfactorily with the points you raised with us, there's no need for you to reply. If I have not heard back from you by 30 August 2006, I will take it that matters are resolved between us - though of course I'll be happy to hear from you should you come back at any point afterwards.
Yours sincerely
Ms Musarat Siddique
Customer Service Officer
How &^%*ing patronising is that?
Boo-hoo, poor Lloyds - I feel soooo sorry for them with all the extra work that they have to do performing these "extra services" (no, services, not penalties) that I so obviously requested
Again, roll on next Thursday and they can have their lba
Cheers
Michael
Please note that the right to reproduce any part of any post I make on this forum is restricted under copyright law.
Hmm, exactly the same bull I just received. You'd think the silly gits would realise when seeing our letters being all similar that we are from the same source and that we WON'T be backing down. Why do they waste even more time money trying?
I bet loads of peeps back out at each and every stage for all sorts of reasons i would imagine its worth their while just for 20% of peeps to back out, i have suggested this site to loads of friends and they have all said it looks to complicated and worrying, im sure the banks are well aware of this and this is why they continue wouldn't you? they have a lot to lose if everyone took them to court they would lose billions its damage limitation excercise thats all, well that show i see it anyway.
Regards
adamski
Lloyds TSB (SARS) request sent 9th June 2006
£2191 Moneyclaim Issued 11/08/2006, Acknowleded 17th August Defence 14 Sep, AQ returned 5/10/2006.SETTLED IN FULL £2,670 26/11/2006/ Lloyds Credit Card SETTLED IN FULL £267 MBNA SETTLED IN FULL 15/09/2006 £829 Citicard (SARS) request sent 22nd June 2006 Moneyclaim issued 19th Sep, Defence and AQ received 5/10/2006, AQ returned 5/10/2006, part refund received 10/10/2006
GE MONEY SETTLLED IN FULL £400
Barclaycard Me and Mrs SARS sent 19/10/2006 settled £350
Welcome Finance PPI 2 accounts one settled £1018 waiting on other
GE Money PPI 1 account settled 8/5/2008 £560 2nd account SETTLED IN FULL £3,599.78p 15thAugust 2008
Lloyds TSB PPI CC complaint sent 10/04/2008
Black Horse PPI with FOS 20/05/2008
HFC PPI complaint sent 22/05/2008
Further to my letter of 28th June and your reply of 5th July 2006, I am again writing to ask you to refund the charges which you have levied from my account since inception. I now understand that the regime of “fees” which you have been applying to my account in relation to “over limit”/late payments/direct debit/standing order refusals, unauthorised overdrafts and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent Consumer regulations. My letter of 28th June explains this in detail – and I contend that these fees are penalties, not “charges for extra services” as you’re keen to imply.
I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.
I note that you have put in a request to refund the £10 DPA fee, however this has not been received yet – therefore I calculate that as at today’s date, you have taken a nett total of £279.00. I require repayment of this amount in full and have enclosed a schedule of the charges that I am reclaiming. I would also contend that as these monies are unlawfully charged, payment should be made directly to me rather than being credited to the accounts.
If you do not fully comply within 10 working days of receipt of this letter (i.e. by Friday 28th July 2006), I shall begin a claim against you for the full amount (plus interest, plus my costs) without further notice.
I look forward to hearing from you by return.
Yours sincerely,
{mcuth}
Cheers
Michael
Please note that the right to reproduce any part of any post I make on this forum is restricted under copyright law.
Keep fighting - I've done a moneyclaim, and Lloyds are procrastinating through the courts system.
HSBC, FS £100
Hfax Credit Card Full Settlement £330 Lloyds FS £503 (had to do moneyclaim + allocation questionaires
Halifax Full Settlement £979
Lloyds Credit Card Moneyclaim raised.
03/05/06 Fraud case with Egg resolved after 2 1/2 months!, full refund of fraud amount+interest+charges (£1060). Apology and cheque for £300 - BBC Working Lunch helped scare them into action.
just to let you guys know we to received the self same letter from ms siddique on the 3rd july then sent lba letter on the 10th july recieved reply to that on the 14th july saying sorry but no refund next step monyclaim form . juat as an after thought ref credit card late pay fees sent my june statements back to all 3 of mine requesting reviews on late pay charge
Capital One reply "it is we who make the rules not the oft so no refund please pay bill asap"
morgan stanly account credited to the tune of £276.40p
tsb no rply as yet (theres a suprise)
keep the faith people
Received the following from the credit card dept today, dated 14th July:
Dear {mcuth}
Thank you for your recent letter dated 28 June about charges on your account.
Please firstly accept my sincere apologies for the length of time that it has taken to respond to you.
Following the Office of Fair Trading's (OFT) statement of 5th April 2006, you believe certain charges we have made to your account (for example late payments/returned payments/exceeding your authorised credit limit) are unlawful and have asked for them to be refunded.
You'll know that most of our credit card services are completely free, and your card provides a convenient method of payment that can be used worldwide. We do however make a charge if you pay us late, or if we let you go over your agreed credit limit, or if we have to tell you that a payment into your account isn't met. All these matters cause us extra cost.
These charges are not hidden. You can find them on your monthly statements, on our website or by contacting our branch staff or telehone helpline. The minimum monthly payment and the payment date, and you credit limit, are also clearly shown on every statement. So you should find it easy to stick to the legal terms and conditions you have agreed to.
We believe our charging policy is fair. The OFT's statement is their view of the principles they think credit card issuers should follow. Ultimately, it is only a court that can decide whether a term is unfair in legal terms.
As you will know, the OFT recommended that these charges be cut to £12 and we have made a commercial decision to do this with effect from 29th June 2006, even though we do not agree with the OFT's interpretation of the law.
The OFT made no recommendation about previous charges and we do not plan to make any alteration to charges we made in the past. As a result we are not in a position to offer you a refund.
I do hope you now understand why our charging policy is fair, and how you will be able to avoid these charges in future. You do not need to reply to this letter unless there is anything else I can do to help you. If you want to contact us again about this please do so by 14 September. If we cannot agree on a solution at that point, I can help you refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service for independent arbitration.
Yours sincerely
Laura Pearson
Service Recovery
Senior Concerns Officer
ROTFLMFAO - what appalling grammar & punctuation in their attempt to make me feel like a scolded schoolboy
Tick, tick, tick, Ms Pearson, time ticketh away.....
Cheers
Michael
Please note that the right to reproduce any part of any post I make on this forum is restricted under copyright law.
Thank you for your letter dated 13 July 2006. I am sorry to hear that you have not been happy with our response to date.
Unfortunately there is little I am able to add to our letter dated 5 July 2006 as we have outlined the bank's position on the points you have raised, although I do respect your opinion about our charges.
This letter is the bank's final response, which means that if you remain dissatisfied you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. If you decide to pursue your complaint through the Financial Ombudsman Service you must do so within 6 months from the date of this letter. Their details are as follows:
Write to: Financial Ombudsman Service
South Quay Plaza
183 Marsh Wall
London
E14 9SR
Thanks for letting us know it has now been entered in 'litigation in progress' can you please PM a moderator at each stage now
When you want to fool the world, tell the truth. Advice & opinions of Janet-M are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any
doubts.
mcuth v Lloyds TSB - FINISHED
The Consumer Forums
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Originally Posted by jamesdryan
;-)
