Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Great site, top marks all round, can't believe it's taken me all this time to find it!
Parked in Chester station yesterday for my commute to work, paid the £4 parking ticket, stuck it to window, went to work.
Come back at night to see a yellow pcn for £25...for being "Parked in a restricted area in a car park." So, i look around, no signs on the wall, no plates (im a highway engineer by trade so I know that plates have to be in place every so often, as well as the yellow lines etc, all in conjunction with the TSRGD 2002), but on the fllor at the front of the bays it says STAFF PARKING. This new area hasn't been there for long, hence me not knowing about it. Other areas have a Staff Parking only sign along the wall...apart from where i was, which was why i parked there.
A few questions...first, can i appeal to NPAS with this?
Now before i start referring to retroflectivity of the markings, and the luminosity of the lighting columns etc, does, as it does on public highway, the absence of a sign negate the fine?
If National Car Parks Ltd is a PRIVATE company, really, do they have a leg to stand on when trying to use PUBLIC courts to recover fines?
Railway land is still public land, is it not?
Also, there is no "Date Issued" on the ticket, just a 'Notice Issued' box with the time, and a BY PA, then ON followed by the date.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
tHE TICKET IS NOT ENFORCEABLE THROUGH THE COURT. THE TICKET WILL PROBABLY BE ADDRESSED TO THE DRIVER ALSO AS THERE IS NO DATE IT IS NOT ENFORCEABLE. IGNORE IT AND SEE WHAT THEY DO .
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Thanks for that mate. It's what i've always done with tickets in the past!
This time though, thanks to the info i've found on this forum, i'm going to do things the polite, proper, and correct way, and tell them where to stick their ****ty little tickets.
I rang them, they said i had to write with my complaint / appeal. There are no signs on the walls, poor lighting etc, but now i'm thinking f*ck that, if its unenforcable, ill try that route first. The only query i have is that the ticket refers to a parking charge NOTICE issued under the bye-laws of the strategic rail authority. Do the loopholes - unenforcability of tickets under the RTA apply here?
The ticket doesn't have Date of Issue anywhere on it.
Heres the draft of the first letter i intend to send. (Thanks to phantomreclaimer and BELLA from the other threads for the wording!)
Regarding parking charge notice number xxxxxxxx which was stuck to my windscreen on 14th December at Chester Station, my legal representative has advised me that the penalty is unenforceable under English law, and no magistrate court in the country will accept your case. If the charge was issued by way of a penalty for breach of contract, then I have to inform you that a penalty charge for a breach of contract is unlawful. Any term that purports to allow one party to a contract to levy a charge by way of a penalty for breach of contract is void. Really, I’ll try and state this in as simple a way as I can: Under which law do you intend to fine me without a trial?
Also, the pcn issued stated that the notice of issue was 14/12/06 but did not state a date of contravention, it merely uses the ‘Notice Issued’ box. Following the recent Judicial Review in the matter of Moses v Barnet originally referred to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service, I have grounds to believe that the PCN has been unlawfully issued and thus £25, or £50 as it is now, is not, in fact, due.
Put simply; I wasn’t born yesterday, so if you persist in pursuing this matter with me I will deem you to be in contravention of numerous laws which protect citizens from harassment from PRIVATE companies such as yourselves, and will seek recompense for any undue financial expense or emotional distress caused, against ALL contracted parties, (i.e. NCP Ltd and the Rail operator.)
You can of course TRY to intimidate me by sending around a 3rd party debt enforcement agency – without a court order – to obtain monies from me, but really, you don’t want to do that, as this places you personally, and your company, in grave risk of breaking the laws pertaining to obtaining monies by deception and demanding money with menaces, and you wouldn’t want the general populace to know how easy it is for them to claim back payments and refuse to pay all, cough, ‘fines,’ cough, levied in your car parks? Personally, seeing your illegal profiteering business would break my heart. And I’m a real boy. Honest.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Sorry, duplication
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Sorry, duplication
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Sorry, duplication
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Sorry, duplication again!! Pc playing up
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Hi Danny,
this is slightly different from private car parks as the Railway have Bye-laws which are enforcable and ARE legal.
I believe that railway property is private land owned by the rail operating company. They have specific bye-laws in relation to what you can and cant do on railway property. you may find that you may be in breach of one of these bye-lawes, possibly bye-law25 or 26, I cant remember which one but I would suggest before taking any further action you go to any railway station and ask for a copy of the bye-laws. You are entitled to by law to ask for a copy and they DO have to issue you with such on request. Sorry to put a dampener on things but as I said, these Bye-Laws are similar to local statute laws that the councils use.
I used to be in the British Transport Police so I do have some knowledge in relation to the Bye-Laws.
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
As an added note at the bottom of the ticket, it states "For the purposes of Byelaw 14 (4) the penalty payable in relation to a breach of thereof is £25 if paid within 14 days, thereafter £50." This isn't in the Byelaws. THis is added simply to make it look as if it is in the laws. The actual clause states that "
(4) In England and Wales
(i)
The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance
used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be
liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.
But clause iv states
(iv)
The power of clamping and removal provided in Byelaw 14(4)(ii) above shall not be exercisable in any area where
passenger parking is permitted unless there is on display in
that area a notice advising that any vehicle parked contrary to
these Byelaws may be clamped and/or removed by an
Operator or an authorised person.
Also, if they are in the right, why doesn't the ticket refer to a PENALTY charge, as opposed to the parking charge NOTICE that it does?
The ticket was issued in a plastic sleeve, which i also believe to be an infringement.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Oh and thanks falcon, all help appreciated!
Technically, isn't Railway land PUBLIC land, just leased to the operators?
Im a highway engineer, and have had some delaings with railtrack in the past regarding taking possessions for night work etc, and always thought it is public land. And being a highway engineer, i know that the signing is all wrong, too, and i can get them on this (photos to show no sign warning me that that area was for staff only, in comparison with other areas of the car park.)
Surely the signing in the TSRGD 2002, as well as the TA 1991 are applicable for all highways and car parks?
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
All railway property is owned by Railtrack as it was known, the land i.e stationsa are leased to the operators. As for taking possession once the work was complete you would have handed possession back to Railtrack, by giving you possession to carry out work allows you to carry out maintainance on the "public" highways which converge with railtrack property. Once possession is given to an outside agency it effectively means that no trains will pass until the possession is handed back.
The Bye- Laws are local statutes as are the Councils, however, as you state the signage is wholly inadequate at the area you parked I would also argue that point with them.
I actually parked in Brighton stn car park a few yrs ago and received a ticket from the same company I believe, I totally ignored it and not heard anything since ;-)
The TA 1991 or TSRGD 2002 I doubt would hold any water if argued as the land IS privately owned and covered by Railway legislation and the ( dreaded ) Bye -Laws.
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
sorry forgot to mention, a PENALTY Charge cannot be given as it would be classed as a fine, the only person allowed to impose a fine is a Magistrate or judge upon convition. Fixed penalty notices can be issued by Police officers and Met Traffic Wardens not a private parking company. Hope this helps.
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
I see what you mean bout the public/private ownership thing. Fair points!
Now, referring to what you, and others here, say about the PENALTY notices, where do these parking charge NOTICES fit in? Am i wrong in stating the below?
FIXED PENALTY NOTICES - Issued by Police and Met Wardens only.
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICES - Traffic Wardens. (Surely if the Byelaws refered to a legal clause, i should have been issued with this one?)
parking charge NOTICES - Isuued by parking ATTENDANTS working for Private companies playing pretend and make believe by using the same initials and dreaded stripey plastic sleeve in order to con gullible scared drivers into paying?
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Hi Danny,
yes your quite right I believe. The reason you received a parking charge NOTICE was due to most of Railtracks car parks now being operated by private Companies. Although they are acting as "Agents of the Railway" they cannot issue penalty notices. Hence the issue of a parking charge Notice. to be totally honest, even when I worked for the BTP I found these clowns to be total cowboys and would help anyone I could that had been clamped by them etc...
They do not have the authority of A Police Officer or Traffic Warden but think they can play God with anyone who dares to make a genuine mistake in any area that they patrol.
Friendship costs nothing but its rewards can be priceless. Do not judge, as you will not be judged but if you can, try and assist where possible.
everyone is entitled to MY opinion! I offer my comments without prejudice or liability.
If you found my advice helpful, please click the scales at the top.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
Dannymc - I am a solicitor, and got the same treatment about 4 weeks ago - as did the person next to me. I did think about fighting it, but the Railway Bye-Laws are enforceable through the courts, and of course the time and effort in fighting a 25 quid charge was not, in my view, justified. The real probelm is that at Chester station, there just aren't enough car parking spaces - the day I parked there, there were at least 12 "staff" carparking spaces free, but the fare paying public (who also pay the "staff" salaries) are seemingly unimportant...! I think what we need is a major campaign in Chester - I know that Railtrack are proposing to build a new car park, but in the meantime, should they not be brought to account by e.g. a public campaign in the press and TV, to provide better facilites for the public, rather than staff, immediately? It seems to me to be ludicrous that spaces (and space not marked out) could be made available for public, fare paying passengers' use but denied them.
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
NPC parking finds
Back in September I was give a parking ticket by our friendly NPC car park watchman? Attendant? It is a bit of a story but I'll try to be brief but please bear the attendant in mind.
Having parked my car in the Arriva train station car park (Carmarthen) I tried to get a ticket from the machine, which was I decided after I fed it £7, without getting a parking ticket in return, was broken for sure.
A friendly couple came over and explained that we were to put a hand written note up in the car explaining that we had paid but the machine was broken.
I thought this sounded a little odd but they insisted that an employee of Arriva Trains advised them to do so, because the car park had nothing to do anymore with the train station and that no parking tickets could be purchased, despite the note underneath the ticket machine, which stated that in case the ticket machine is non functional parking tickets could be bought from the Arriva ticket office.
I did notice several cars with notes on the dashboards and wrote my own explaining matters. I decided to double check with the kind Lady in the train ticket booth, who confirmed that she was not able to sell me a parking ticket , since the car park no longer was property of the train station. Also she was a little fed up with requests for parking tickets, a twenty odd people before me had already asked her for such. She also said that the ticket machine in the car park is for ever breaking down.
Oh, what a surprise on my return I found a parking ticket glued to my car's windscreen. Lovely I thought and off I went to find the station master. It was a bit of a queue outside his office.
Eventually the station master was located, had he been hiding because there had been other before us?
We all filled out a complaints form they took a photo copy of the note we had in the car, then was supposed to be faxed to HQ to be sorted and no worries the fault lies with Arriva no big deal, it's going to be all sorted and nobody will hear from NPC.
Two months later I receive a letter explaining that NPC are taking me to court... Obviously my letter never arrived at HQ,put into file 13(bin/shredder) perhaps?
Off I went to talk to the station master, to see if I could find out what had happened.. Well the gentleman who handled the complaints no longer works in Carmarthen, he has been transferred to London without making a note in the station log book, without passing the information on, so it seems. Another station master (there are three), who has issues of his own with NPC asked the car park attendant into his office so that I may speak with him( or beat him with my hand bag?) This very efficient young man, who must get a decent cut for every car booked(but not as much as his manager!) Told me You should have bought a ticket from the office, as it says on the sign underneath the machine....
Duh! Silly me!! Should have done that, mea culpa, mea culpa. BUT!!!!!
... How can I do so if the employee insists they do not sell the tickets and refuses to help?
When I asked the car park warden/attendant? ( who obviously had been top of his class in the NPC boot camp(power stance and glare well practiced) if it would not strike him a a bit odd, that so many cars on this day had a note on the dash, explaining why they had no ticket?One car, five maybe but twenty? And if this does not give the impression that there has been, is a problem?
Yes, he said that would be the logical conclusion and if he, the attendant were to speak to his manager about this he would be told to book the lot. NPC got to love em...
Btw now I have vented...
I am not going to pay the £50 and I would love to hear from anybody who has been in a similar situation, or any advice be most welcome.
Thank you!!!!
Re: NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
You have decided on the best course of action.
The usual advice is ignore any of their bumf. In the extremely unlikely event they take you to court post back here - there are a number of posters who will help you with a defense.
Have a read through a few of the threads on this forum.
This link will help with an explanation of why their charges can and should be ignored.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This does not constitute legal advice and is not represented as a substitute for legal advice from an appropriately qualified person or firm. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NCP fine in a Railway Station Car Park...Legal?
for £25...for being "Parked in a restricted area in a car park." So, i look around, no signs on the wall, no plates (im a highway engineer by trade so I know that plates have to be in place every so often, as well as the yellow lines etc, all in conjunction with the TSRGD 2002), but on the fllor at the front of the bays it says STAFF PARKING. This new area hasn't been there for long, hence me not knowing about it. Other areas have a Staff Parking only sign along the wall...apart from where i was, which was why i parked there.
Reply With Quote
