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  1. #21
    Basic Account Holder disgruntled2007 Novitiate



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    Quote Originally Posted by Heckler View Post
    Street lighting isn't an indicator of any speed limits, I used to live in Milton Keynes, that's pretty much 60mph speed limits on the entire grid system, not all of which are dual carriageway and they're all street lighting.
    On the contrary. Street lighting IS an indicator of speed limit. The limit is 30mph whenever street lighting is present UNLESS there is signage to the contrary.

    *posted before I realised this point had already been made.....

    Turning left onto the A605 out of Thrapston on either Oundle Road or Huntingdon Road you will be met with round 40mph speed limit signs on both sides of the road as you approach the roundabouts....

    Street view is quite clear....


  2. #22
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    I’ve just been having a glance back at some of your posts to see if I can help further.


    This grabbed me:

    “I'm not admitting to doing something I haven't.”

    You are not being asked to admit to anything.
    All you are being asked to do is to provide the details of the driver at the time of the allegation.


    From your posts it seems to me that you are exploring the possibility of a defence to the speeding allegation
    (on the basis of the signage, etc or possibly that it was not your car at all) before providing the driver’s details.


    This is completely the wrong approach.
    Even if you have an absolute cast iron defence to the speeding allegation you still have to provide the driver’s details.
    If you do not then prosecution under S172 beckons.

    Whilst it is true that if you plead not guilty to the S172 offence,
    the prosecution has to prove that it was your car (if you raise the issue that it was not) they will have little difficulty doing so.


    They have a photo of a car with your registration number and it fits the make and model.
    That will be proof enough unless you can bring anything to court to cast doubt.


    After that, the onus shifts to you to demonstrate that you have exercised all the reasonable diligence you can to establish who was driving but have still been unable to do so.

    So, forget the signage.
    It seems a dead duck anyway from what disgruntled has seen on Streetview and as I have explained, when driving on a road with street lights you should assume it is a 30mph limit unless you see signs to the contrary.


    You need to concentrate on identifying the driver because without doing that,
    3 points and 100 will almost certainly turn into six points and a good few hundred smackeroonies.


  3. #23
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Quote Originally Posted by Man in the middle View Post
    Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road. You can find confirmation in the form of advice here:

    https://www.confused.com/on-the-road...-speeding-fine

    and here:

    http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/speed_markings.html

    and here (among many other places):

    https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/ad...it/lamp-posts/

    Section 81 does not apply to motorways. Either the roads around Milton Keynes are derestricted by means of signs to indicate a different limit or you have been lucky. Just out of interest, what makes the roads in MK 60mph other than a 60mph sign (i.e. a "sign to the contrary)?

    Anyway, you keep on worrying about the signage. As I've said, no need to worry about that until you either provide the driver’s details or decide you cannot do so and opt instead to run a “reasonable diligence” defence.
    The roads in MK have always been that way, there are no signs at all to show lower speed limits...
    I think it's perhaps because the whole city was designed around vehicle travel,


    it's laid out like grid system... with single/dual carriageways separate from any built up areas..
    aside from where those roads intersect with an existing part of the city..
    . that was there before the city was even built.


    Each individual estate is accessed via this grid system and then becomes a 30 limit.
    I can only think of one little section that has changed from a 60 to a 50/40 and that's due to it being a very old single carriageway route between two of the old towns right on the edge of the city where they have now built yet another estate.


  4. #24
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    So there are terminal signs between the 30mph and 60mph limits and repeaters where the 60mph limit prevails when there is street lighting? And back to this particular road in question here, what limit did you think prevailed before all this happened?


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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    and for how many years have you used that road....

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  6. #26
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



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    Quote Originally Posted by Man in the middle View Post
    So there are terminal signs between the 30mph and 60mph limits and repeaters where the 60mph limit prevails when there is street lighting? And back to this particular road in question here, what limit did you think prevailed before all this happened?
    No, I'm saying there are 'NO' speed limit signs posted almost anywhere on the entire grid system.. unless it's at a section where it intersects with a pre-existing part of the city from before it was built...
    Such as the old A5 (now the V5 I think) around Stony Stratford which is sign posted as 40mph.


    .. I can't say for absolute certain that 'none' of the grid roads don't have any signs at all..
    . but I grew up there and drove around it every day for 15yrs, and still drive there a couple of days a week now... but it's expanding rapidly at the moment with some new sections being built that I've never driven at all.. but they're linked of the old A5 road (Watling Street) which is 60mph and always has been.

    I did just find a repeater sign for the national speed limit on a section of the old A5 near to the spot there is a massive amount of housing being built.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.03...7i13312!8i6656

    Quote Originally Posted by dx100uk View Post
    and for how many years have you used that road....
    Which road?


  7. #27
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    Drive down the route( sticking to the speed limit) and have someone video from the passenger seat video the route

    If there is inadequate signage on the route taken, then whoever was driving can defend at Magistrates. Send a copy of any video that proves the issue to the prosecution in advance of any hearing, giving them plenty of time to cancel, if they don't want to proceed.

    It is up to whoever was driving to decide what they want to do now. Gather evidence and fight or take the fine/penalty.


  8. #28
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    As others have pointed out, if you look at streetview maps, there are signs posted. I was only looking at the section where the alleged offence happened... and I'm not (or wasn't) aware of the legal requirements for such signs. I certainly didn't know that roads with lighting were 30mph unless indicated otherwise (although still not sure if it's a guideline or a legal one)... it seems MK goes against this and as I grew up and learned to drive there. I kinda expect that to be the same elsewhere.


  9. #29
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



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    Re; Milton Keynes. Here's a "snip" from Google Streetview of Snelshall Street, MK - one of the "grid" roads which I chose at random which you say have no speed limit signs. You can see the National Speed Limit repeater sign just to the left of the estate car in the picture. This makes the road 70mph (assuming it is dual carriageway). Without that sign, because the road has street lights, it would be a 30mph limit. I do not believe the signage in MK is any different to anywhere else because if they were speed effective enforcement would be impossible.

    However, we digress.

    I certainly didn't know that roads with lighting were 30mph unless indicated otherwise (although still not sure if it's a guideline or a legal one)..
    .

    It's legislation and I provided the relevant passage earlier. When learning to drive the Highway Code is the normal source. In the section explaining speed limits there is a column for "Built Up Areas". There is a footnote to that column which says this:

    *The 30mph limit usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting unless signs show otherwise.*"

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  10. #30
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    I passed my test around 27yrs ago... I can't be expected to remember things like that.


  11. #31
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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    You also can't be expected to remember that Milton Keynes is NOT a city, despite being brought up there!

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  12. #32
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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    We're straying off topic a bit here!

    Leaving aside the fact that you need to provide the driver's details before you begin to worry about the niceties of the speeding allegation,
    you face an uphill struggle with the signage if you eventually do get to have a speeding charge put to you (or whoever else you discover was driving).


    First of all it seems that signage was in place if disgruntled's enquiries are anything to go by.


    But (and here's where the lampposts come in) if you are driving in an area with street lighting you should assume it is a 30mph limit until you see signs that tell you otherwise.


    The fact that you have forgotten this will cut no ice in court.


  13. #33
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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    GF reminded me that we were out with friends on that Saturday,
    I have 3 witnesses to my activities that prove I wasn't driving...


    that left 1 other person with access to the spare key...
    GF's son ...


    the no good, sneaky little git 'borrowed' the car whilst we were out with friends...
    without asking and whilst he is insured.. he's not allowed to use it without permission.


    Denied it at first... then refused to let me look at his location history on his phone.
    Couldn't get his story straight about what he'd done that day...


    Eventually admitted it when I told him I'd have to refer the matter back to the police to investigate as me and the GF now had alibi's for that time/day and they could get his location data from his provider even if he wiped it.

    Long story...
    he's almost 23 and already has 9 points and can no longer afford his own car/insurance as he's gone back to Uni... and is now removed from ours.
    Chances are he'll lose his license for however long it is.


    He's gotta take the consequences of his actions.
    I'd have revoked his driving of my car anyway, just for taking it without permission and lying about it...
    Turns out the reason there isn't any dashcam footage is because he deleted it to try and cover his tracks.

    Told him if he ever took my car again... I'd report it stolen... and he'd be kicked out of my house...
    Time to get tough with him,
    he's gotten away with far too much for far too long.


    He'll have to find work during his breaks and pay rent from now on whilst living here
    (weekend visits during terms are ok... he only comes back to get his mum to do his washing for him anyway, and eat everything in sight.).

    Rough week...
    my neighbour passed away the other day and this ungrateful little git trying it on has pushed all the wrong buttons.
    I wanted to kick him out there and then...
    But got talked down for now...
    But last chance has been used up..
    there will be no more.

    Speaking with friends, all 35 and over, and all have been driving for at least 15yrs or more...
    and not one of them knew that if there are street lights it was 30mph unless signs stated otherwise.

    So I guess I wasn't the only one.


  14. #34
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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Well, at least you found the speeding driver and don't have to go through the ordeal of having to prove that you weren't there at the time.
    As you said, he needs to take responsibility for his actions and get the points.


  15. #35
    Basic Account Holder disgruntled2007 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    ...and be prepared for a potential question from the Police along the following lines.....

    "Did your GF's son have permission to use the vehicle on this occasion?"


  16. #36
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



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    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Great! Simply return the Section 172 request providing his details and let nature take its course. Make sure you do so within the 28 days allowed as you do not want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Also keep a careful note of how you came to discover he was the driver. If he denies that he was the matte may return to you and you need to have your ducks in a row. Keep some evidence that he was insured at the time but you have subsequently removed him.

    Provided you do not shilly-shally with that there should be no questions asked of you about permission. However, if the question of whether he was insured is asked of him (again unlikely provided he does not faff about) he will also probably be asked whether he had your permission. Personally I would tell the truth and let the little scrote suffer the consequences.

    He will not be offered a fixed penalty (or if he is and attempts to take it the offer will be withdrawn). He will face a court appearance and can look forward to a six month disqualification for "totting" unless he can prove he would suffer "exceptional hardship" as a result. By the sounds of it six months off the road might do him good.

    PS - Glad to have helped out with the "lamposts" matter! You never know, it might come in handy one day.



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