Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2
1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36
  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2009
    Posts : 183 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    I received an NIP last week for an alleged offence committed on the 26th August.


    After reviewing the online evidence it's only showing the rear of the car and not the driver...
    We cannot say with absolute certainty who was driving at the time of the alleged offence,
    in fact I cannot recall anyone even driving that section of road in the last few years.


    It's 10-12 miles in the opposite direction to any journeys normally made...
    I had a look at my dashcam footage to see if it still had anything from that date,
    but sadly it's all now overwritten with the earliest recordings from the 28th.

    I had a look at the road and on street maps and I think that the sign posting for that section of road is inadequate...
    there is a miniature 40mph sign on the corner as you exit the roundabout
    and then I cannot see another one until well past the point of the alleged offence just before the next roundabout.
    This section of road isn't through a built up area and is an A road that is 60mph before that roundabout.


    It feels like they'd reduced the speed of that section purely to catch out motorists who cannot see the tiny little speed limit signs that are around a quarter of the size of regular ones and in the case of some of them, set far further back from the road than normal signs are.


    The quality of the online images is particularly poor and doesn't have enough visible detail to even tell 100% if it's my car.
    It does appear to be the right make/model/colour and you can just about make out the reg number, but not the other details of the number plate (such as country code and so forth which is in blue, nor the writing underneath from the dealer) and I also have a sticker on the back window underneath the rear wiper that I cannot see on the image.. because of the poor quality.

    To sum up:

    1: Cannot be certain that I or anyone else drove the car on that road
    2: Cannot be certain that it's even my actual car in the image because of the lack of detail in the images
    3: Concerned that my car could have been cloned (or at least the reg number)

    Can I reply without admitting fault and ask for images in a much higher detail than those on the website,
    because you cannot download them to try and enlarge to see details
    they are displayed in such a tiny resolution on the website that it's impossible to even tell if there's a blue part on the number plate to the left.


    I have zero points on my license and haven't had any in 20yrs,
    I have no problem taking responsibility for any offence I 'have' committed,
    but I'm not taking it for something I didn't...


    and at this moment I cannot say with any accuracy if anyone drove my car on that road at that date/time nor can I state with an accuracy that the car is in fact mine to begin with.


  2. #2
    Site Team dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk Highly authoritative dx100uk's Avatar



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Dec 2006
    Posts : 106,071 (26.99 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    the little signs are repeater signs.
    there should be a larger one somewhere before up the road.


    dx

    PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS
    Click Here To Make A Donation
    If you want advice on your thread please PM me a link to your thread
    my views are my own...seek legal advice if necessary
    NEVER EVER - act on a private message asking you to visit another website, make contact 'off list' or by phone alert the siteteam
    DX RIP Martin3030
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  3. #3
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2009
    Posts : 183 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    There isn't a full sized sign then... as you exit the roundabout onto this A road, there is a small 'repeater' sign and about a mile or so further down the road there is another one before the next roundabout... Is this enough to make it invalid?

    In fact upon checking this section... in both directions there are no full sized speed limit signs at all between the 2 roundabouts.


  4. #4
    Gold Account Holder BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Mar 2009
    Posts : 5,289 (1.70 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    If it wasn't you, why are you bothered about the signage?.

    Stating "it wasn't me, but if it was you can't do me because the signage is incorrect" will only lead to doubt as to the accuracy of the claim your car had been cloned ....


  5. #5
    Basic Account Holder disgruntled2007 Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jan 2007
    Posts : 292 (0.07 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    If you honestly can't remember who was driving your car at that time you respond to the NIP accordingly.

    How many people regularly drive the vehicle?

    Check your diary to see what events were occurring around that time to see if that helps jog your memory on whether your car was there or not.....


  6. #6
    Basic Account Holder disgruntled2007 Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jan 2007
    Posts : 292 (0.07 post per day)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Heckler View Post
    There isn't a full sized sign then... as you exit the roundabout onto this A road, there is a small 'repeater' sign and about a mile or so further down the road there is another one before the next roundabout... Is this enough to make it invalid?

    In fact upon checking this section... in both directions there are no full sized speed limit signs at all between the 2 roundabouts.
    What section of road are you on about? Are there streetlights?


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2009
    Posts : 183 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Quote Originally Posted by BazzaS View Post
    If it wasn't you, why are you bothered about the signage?.

    Stating "it wasn't me, but if it was you can't do me because the signage is incorrect" will only lead to doubt as to the accuracy of the claim your car had been cloned ....
    Just because I don't remember driving this bit of road... doesn't mean with absolute certainty that I or anyone else didn't.
    .. and if I did then I will take responsibility for it.


    I'm not admitting to doing something I haven't.
    hence the evidence is vital to finding out..
    and the evidence is inadequate to determine fault at this point.
    I can't even remember what I did on that day.

    I tend to look at things from multiple angles, so inadequate signage is just one of the things any person being thorough would do.

    If it was my car, then I have to make sure I know who was driving it so I can notify them.


  8. #8
    Gold Account Holder BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative BazzaS Authoritative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Mar 2009
    Posts : 5,289 (1.70 post per day)

    Default

    Fair enough.
    I'd make that point in your reply, and that you are willing to make "all reasonable efforts" to identify the driver.

    The courts see all the dodges to evade responsibility, so you'll want to persuade the police (& the court if need be!) that you want to have the responsibility allocated to the correct individual, and that is why you are seeking as much information as you can.


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2009
    Posts : 183 (0.06 post per day)

    Default

    Do I send back the NIP and tick the section that says I am unable to provide details of the driver at that time?.. and include a letter to explain why, asking for further information.. or just send a letter asking for information?

    Quote Originally Posted by disgruntled2007 View Post
    If you honestly can't remember who was driving your car at that time you respond to the NIP accordingly.

    How many people regularly drive the vehicle?

    Check your diary to see what events were occurring around that time to see if that helps jog your memory on whether your car was there or not.....
    Nothing in the diary.. in fact I had a clear week and my last appt was the 22nd August and then nothing until the 31st... As far as I can recall I didn't do anything that entire week except some stuff around the house/garden & going shopping locally in my town.

    My car was off the road for a few weeks before hand after a minor accident, and although it was repairable the insurance decided to write it off... So I had to buy it back and get a new MoT on it before I could legally drive it again... there's still some damage to the drivers door that is waiting repair (got a new door here).. The images I've seen of the car online show a 3/4 view that includes the drivers side... so once again, a better quality image may show damage to the drivers door which would confirm it's my car... but if the damage is missing... it proves absolutely that it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by disgruntled2007 View Post
    What section of road are you on about? Are there streetlights?
    It's the A605 at Thrapston in East Northants, there are street lights but the time of the offence was 11:19am... and If I'm being honest... I'm rarely up before noon these days and rarely in bed much before 3-4am.. According to them the van was parked at the marked location and the car was travelling North.

    Attached Images

  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jan 2017
    Posts : 57 (0.23 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    At this stage the signage issue is irrelevant.

    You are only being asked to provide the driver’s details at present.
    If you return the Section 172 notice (which is what you return, not the NIP)
    simply saying that you do not know who was driving you will be charged under Section 172
    – “Failure to provide driver’s details”.
    You will not get any other information
    (what do you have in mind?).

    If you argue that the car was not yours
    the prosecution has to prove that it was.


    It is unlikely that there are any other photographs available and so they will rely on the one you have seen (or one very similar to it).


    Simply saying “I don’t think it was my car” is unlikely to cast sufficient doubt.
    Being able to prove your car was elsewhere at the time would.


    Can you do that?
    Suspecting “cloning” is also unlikely to cut the mustard.
    First of all it is incredibly rare and also people driving with cloned plates tend not to commit a single minor offence.
    Have you received any other NIPs beside this one?

    There is a statutory defence to the charge which says that you shall not be guilty if you can show that you did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was.
    This is a high hurdle to climb.


    You need to demonstrate that you have exercised all reasonable avenues to establish who was driving.
    You will need to show that you have eliminated yourself (obviously)
    and that you have comprehensively investigated the possibility that anybody else who has access to the vehicle may have been driving.

    The tone of your posts at the moment suggests this:
    “I think it might not have been my car at all.
    But if it was I can’t really recall driving down that road at the time”.
    That simply won’t cut the mustard, I’m afraid.

    “Just because I don't remember driving this bit of road... doesn't mean with absolute certainty that I or anyone else didn't. .. and if I did then I will take responsibility for it.”
    This obviously relates to the speeding offence.
    However, as I said at the beginning, you need not worry about that at present.
    The Section 172 offence is the one you will face if you do not provide the driver’s details.

    The Section 172 offence carries six points, a hefty fine and insurance grief for around five years (insurers hate the MS90 endorsement code that goes with it).


    You have not said what the alleged speed is but is very likely that the penalty for speeding will be quite a bit less.
    It really is in your interests to make every effort to find out who was driving.





  11. #11
    Basic Account Holder Migster Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Apr 2009
    Posts : 118 (0.04 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Depending on you phone, you might to be able to get info of your whereabouts from that e.g. the Timeline section of the Google Maps app on my phone shows my movements on 26th (i drove to my local Sainsbury's).


  12. #12
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2009
    Posts : 183 (0.06 post per day)

    Default

    The offence was doing 55 in a 40 zone... does anyone know what the fine/points are for that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Migster View Post
    Depending on you phone, you might to be able to get info of your whereabouts from that e.g. the Timeline section of the Google Maps app on my phone shows my movements on 26th (i drove to my local Sainsbury's).
    That's a good idea, I'll check, can't do everyone's as the GF isn't back until the weekend now and the lad is at uni now... not sure when he'll be coming to visit next.


  13. #13
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jan 2017
    Posts : 57 (0.23 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    The offence was doing 55 in a 40 zone... does anyone know what the fine/points are for that?
    Just too fast for a Speed Awareness Course (that is available up to 53mph). The driver would be offered a fixed penalty of 100 and three points.


  14. #14
    Site Team Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P Authoritative Mr.P's Avatar



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Mar 2013
    Posts : 3,528 (2.13 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Quote Originally Posted by Heckler View Post
    It's the A605 at Thrapston in East Northants, there are street lights but the time of the offence was 11:19am....
    Quote Originally Posted by Heckler View Post
    I had a look at the road and on street maps and I think that the sign posting for that section of road is inadequate... there is a miniature 40mph sign on the corner as you exit the roundabout and then I cannot see another one until well past the point of the alleged offence just before the next roundabout. This section of road isn't through a built up area and is an A road that is 60mph before that roundabout.
    The short stretch of road between the A14 interchange and the Huntington RDicon roundabout is a 40MPH zone. There is a large round speed sign just after you enter the A605 from the A14 roundabout. The 40MPH zone continues to just beyond the Oundle Rd roundabout at the northern end of Thrapston. You can check this via Google's street view (the images are from July 2016).

    I'm afraid poor signage will not help you. The small repeater signs that you refer to are there as a reminder as to the speed limit in force along that stretch of road.

    PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING
    EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS


    No... you can't eat my brain just yet. I need it a little while longer.
    Follows
    0
    Following
    0

  15. #15
    Site Team mariner51 Highly informative mariner51 Highly informative mariner51 Highly informative mariner51 Highly informative mariner51 Highly informative mariner51 Highly informative mariner51's Avatar



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jan 2011
    Posts : 2,697 (1.10 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Photos are to identify the vehicle involved, not the driver.


  16. #16
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jan 2017
    Posts : 57 (0.23 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    The small repeater signs that you refer to are there as a reminder as to the speed limit in force along that stretch of road.
    Which, since I assume the road has a system of street lighting, would be 30mph in the absence of anything to the contrary.

    I'm afraid poor signage will not help you
    .
    And even if it did, your problem at the moment is to identify the driver. Until you overcome that obstacle you can forget about the intricacies of the speeding allegation.


  17. #17
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2009
    Posts : 183 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Quote Originally Posted by Man in the middle View Post
    Which, since I assume the road has a system of street lighting, would be 30mph in the absence of anything to the contrary.
    Street lighting isn't an indicator of any speed limits, I used to live in Milton Keynes, that's pretty much 60mph speed limits on the entire grid system, not all of which are dual carriageway and they're all street lighting.


  18. #18
    Basic Account Holder sgtbush Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jul 2012
    Posts : 780 (0.41 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Heckler, street lighting is.
    Unless signposted to the contrary the limit is 30mph


  19. #19
    Basic Account Holder Heckler Novitiate



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jun 2009
    Posts : 183 (0.06 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.P View Post
    The short stretch of road between the A14 interchange and the Huntington RDicon roundabout is a 40MPH zone. There is a large round speed sign just after you enter the A605 from the A14 roundabout. The 40MPH zone continues to just beyond the Oundle Rd roundabout at the northern end of Thrapston. You can check this via Google's street view (the images are from July 2016).

    I'm afraid poor signage will not help you. The small repeater signs that you refer to are there as a reminder as to the speed limit in force along that stretch of road.
    So what are the rules on signage? Because if you come out of Thrapston and turn left onto the A605... you would never see that 40mph speed limit sign... and you'd have to look pretty hard to spot the tiny repeater ones, especially on what appears to be a very busy road as it's the main route between the A14 and Peterborough/A1.

    I've also seen the photo's of where the van was parked... and they've parked half on the grass verge obscuring a signpost.


  20. #20
    Basic Account Holder Man in the middle Informative Man in the middle Informative



    Follow Real_CAG on Twitter
    Cagger since : Jan 2017
    Posts : 57 (0.23 post per day)

    Default Re: Speeding - Inadequate Signage - Possible Cloned Reg

    Street lighting isn't an indicator of any speed limits,
    Section 82(1)(a) (of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (RTRA 1984)) defines a restricted road in England and Wales as a road which is provided with “a system of street lighting furnished by means of lamps placed not more than 200 yards apart”. Section 81 specifically makes it an offence for a person to drive a motor vehicle at a speed of more than 30 mph on a restricted road. You can find confirmation in the form of advice here:

    https://www.confused.com/on-the-road...-speeding-fine

    and here:

    http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/speed_markings.html

    and here (among many other places):

    https://www.rospa.com/road-safety/ad...it/lamp-posts/

    Section 81 does not apply to motorways. Either the roads around Milton Keynes are derestricted by means of signs to indicate a different limit or you have been lucky. Just out of interest, what makes the roads in MK 60mph other than a 60mph sign (i.e. a "sign to the contrary)?

    Anyway, you keep on worrying about the signage. As I've said, no need to worry about that until you either provide the driver’s details or decide you cannot do so and opt instead to run a “reasonable diligence” defence.



Reclaim the Right Ltd. - reg.05783665 in the UK reg. office:- 923 Finchley Road London NW11 7PE
We use cookies to personalise content and ads and to provide social media features. We also share information about your use of our site with our advertising and analytics partners. See details