Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

£6.99



Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #221
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    Default Re: Why complaint procedures have so many stages?

    Thread moved to the Students forum.

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  2. #222
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    Default Re: Why complaint procedures have so many stages?

    Oh jeeeeeze.....
    I'm reply to your reply,
    You possted the statement on exceptional circumstances to which I elaborated...
    Please adminicon, lock this post out


  3. #223
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    Default Re: Why complaint procedures have so many stages?

    the complaint here seems to be (let us take an old fashioned industrial setting as an example) that the shop manager said no to somehting and he is complaining that the foremen wasnt allowed to say no first.

    The factory manager also said no
    so the end result will always be the same regardless of the opinion of the foreman.

    He makes it clear there is no argument about the facts of the matter,
    just hoping that some pettifogging will somehow allow the institution to be forced to award him his degree that he hasnt passed.


  4. #224
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    Default A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person and case no pleaded

    I have found in the following website

    https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont..._in_Person.PDF

    a document called A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person
    This seems a useful document. However in chapter 8.4 of this document I have found something strange because it is stated

    8.14 Provided you set out your case on all the facts necessary to prove your claim your pleading will pass muster. Make sure that the facts are set out in chronological order and that you do no more than summarise them. The full details of the relevant facts will be set out later in your witness statements. The old adage Facts not law; Facts not evidence remains as true today as ever. It means that you do not have to set out the legal basis of your claim in your pleading, simply the facts that go to make up your claim. Further, you do not set out the evidence, ie the details, just the basic facts that go to make up your claim Note down the elements of your cause of action, and make sure that you are in a position to prove the facts necessary to make good each element

    We can notice the passage

    The old adage Facts not law; Facts not evidence remains as true today as ever. It means that you do not have to set out the legal basis of your claim in your pleading, simply the facts that go to make up your claim

    Which is very strange because it says that I do not have to set out the legal basis of my claim in my pleading simply the facts that go to make up my claim. However I did like this and my claim was struck out because the judge says that it was not properly pleaded because I put forward the facts but not the law in my claim formicon. Therefore I would like to know if this documents which has been written by six circuit judges is accurate?


  5. #225
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    Default Re: A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person and case no pleaded

    what type of claim was struck out...

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  6. #226
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    Default Re: A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person and case no pleaded

    A small claimicon against a public body for harassment.

    It was struck out not because the claim itself but because I explained the facts in the claim formicon but not the law which has been broken even though according to me these facts related to the law which was broken.

    I explained the law which was broken in a witness statement that I filed later but the judge told me that it was too late and I should have put this explanation in the claim form itself. However this Handbook for Litigants in Person says in its chapter 8.4 that to put forward in the claim form the facts only suffices


  7. #227
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    Default

    I would be grateful to you if you put back my thread as a new threadicon and separate thread in the General Legal Issue subforum because this thread has nothing to do with my previous threads. Otherwise people will get confused

    This new threadicon has nothing to do with Employment Law


  8. #228
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    No confusion.

    IMO : It should stand as merged. OPs posting style and history is relevant background.

    CAGicon site breaks the link you posted. The last bit (.PDFicon) needs to be in lower case. The site converts this to upper case.
    http://tinyurl.com/yczjyjaw should work.

    In answer to your question:
    a) chapter 6 deals with issues of law VSicon. issues of fact
    b) we dont know exactly what the judge said, only your summary interpreting what you believe they said ........ It may be that they felt your pleadings of facts failed to show a cause of action at law.

    8.17 is relevant.
    8.16 is relevant too : would it be fair to point out it has been suggested sometimes on CAGicon that you can be argumentative over non-essential matters (well, others say they arent key but you seem to feel they are!), or that you focus on intricacies of procedure.
    If you irritated the judge they might have decided to offer you less latitude.


  9. #229
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    In my claim formicon I did not make any reference to a particular law being broken and the defendant has taken advantage of this to make an application to strike out.

    In my reply to this application I say that the facts to which I made reference in my claim form related to breaches of a particular of law.

    However the judge says that my claim as pleaded does not concern breach of this particular law because I did not make any reference to this particular law in my claim form and as a consequence he has struck out my claim

    Irrespectively of what the judge says the issue is whether or not what is stated in 8.14 is correct or not i.e. whether or not the following passage is correct?

    “The old adage ‘Facts not law; Facts not evidence’ remains as true today as ever. It means that you do not have to set out the legal basis of your claim in your pleading, simply the facts that go to make up your claim”

    I would like to know also if you know authorities which confirm this passage because I need evidence if I want to appeal against the decision to strike out my claim because after all this document called “A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person” seems to be only guidance and not the law?


  10. #230
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    Oh good. It is a repetition of your other threads in so far as:
    You post a question
    Someone answers
    You ignore the answer and just repeat your question..... sometimes adding a little twist.

    When was your claim struck out?
    Did you ask for leave to appeal?
    Are you still in time to appeal / have the strike-out set-asideicon?

    Irrespectively of what the judge says the issue is whether or not what is stated in 8.14 is correct or not : No, I consider that what the judge said is fairly relevant!!
    What are your grounds for appeal?


  11. #231
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    I have already make an application for permission to appeal which was refused on papers and I have renewed it an an oral hearing and I am preparing this hearing.

    What the judge told me is certainly relevant but he told me nothing more than I already told you. Moreover my only ground of appeal is paragraph 8.14 of this document called A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person in particular the passage which says

    The old adage Facts not law; Facts not evidence remains as true today as ever. It means that you do not have to set out the legal basis of your claim in your pleading, simply the facts that go to make up your claim


  12. #232
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    You are dead in the water then, if you just quote 8.14 without further explanation.

    Id have thought (for example) that your grounds would have had to have been something along the lines of the judge misdirected themself.
    There was a cause of action and it is <State relevant Law>.
    This may not have been in the pleadings but it doesnt have to be overtly stated <See paragraph 8.14>.
    The facts as pleaded demonstrate my cause of action

    However, youll still have to show that (as at 8.10(2)) that you had in fact shown within your pleadings that you had a cause of action.

    The question then becomes if the judge erred in ruling you hadnt established your claim, or was correct and you hadnt established it on the facts stated in your pleading.


  13. #233
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    Yes I will put forward all the things you say but this would not be enough if I do not succeed to prove that the judge was wrong in law when he considered that my case was not properly pleaded because in my claim formicon I make reference only to the facts and not to the laws

    This document A_Handbook_for_Litigants_ in_Person comes from the website https://www.judiciary.gov.uk which seems to come from the Government but I do not know if it comes from the Ministry of Justice and if it is the law or simple guidance. We can appeal only on a point of law.

    Moreover I need to be sure that I interpret paragraph 8.14 of this document properly

    It will be good also if I can strengthen my ground of appeal with some authorities which confirm this paragraph 8.14

    Hence the issue is to clarify if whether or not in the claim form we need to put forward only the facts and not the law and the evidence. The law along with the evidence being put forward later in witness statements for the full hearing or in witness statements in reply to applications to strike out.



  14. #234
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    Another problem that I have in that in this document
    “A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person" that we can find in the website

    https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont..._in_Person.PDF

    it is made reference to Appendix A, X and Y. However when I use the 'Find' facility of my computer to find them I cannot find them. I would like to know if you can explain me how to find these three appendixes


  15. #235
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    Quote Originally Posted by resources View Post
    Another problem that I have in that in this document
    A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person" that we can find in the website

    https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-cont..._in_Person.PDF

    it is made reference to Appendix A, X and Y. However when I use the 'Find' facility of my computer to find them I cannot find them. I would like to know if you can explain me how to find these three appendixes

    "A budget must in the form Precedent H [CPR PD3E.1], a copy of which will be found at appendix A."

    Firstly, this is found at page 160, easily found by looking for "Precedent H". The fact that they haven't titled it "Appendix A" doesn't really matter.
    Secondly, this is irrelevant to the issue you have raised that of your appeal.

    Why are you obsessing about irrelevant details?, and details that (even if they were relevant to your appeal), aren't really an issue!. Does it matter that it isn't entitled "Appendix A"? it is in the form of an appendix, at the end of the document, and is easily found.

    The reference to Appendix Y?.

    "How to go about preparing your pleading as Defendant pleading a Defence (and Counterclaim) 8.18 First carry out preparation as suggested at 8.9 above:
    1. (i) Work out the cause or causes of action which form the basis of the claim against you, and note down the elements of the Claimants cause of action, (see Appendix Y)"




    For a start, they point out that the person should note down the elements of the cause of action, and they have referred to these before, so they don't really have to provide an Appendix Y.
    Perhaps they did have an Appendix Y in a previous draft, and it got removed, and they missed removing the reference to it.
    Yet again, though, you are focusing on an irrelevance. The reference to Appendix Y is within "preparing your pleading as Defendant pleading a Defence", and you weren't the defendant.


    The foreword makes a clear statement: "this handbook, which is specifically aimed at those litigants in person engaged in proceedings on the multi-track". It isn't a definitive statement on procedure in the small claimsicon track, it is:
    a) a guide / handbook, not definitive procedure. and
    b) intended for the multi-track.


    This is re-iterated in the preface:
    "Thirdly, and most importantly, litigants should appreciate that judges are individuals. Some have their own particular way of doing things. We are confident that most judges sitting in the civil courts will agree with all the advice we have given in this Handbook. But you may appear before a judge who disagrees with individual points we have made. For the litigant, the most important judge is the judge before whom he is actually appearing"
    An individual judge isn't bound by the handbook. You are better focusing on the CPR (but even that allows judges wide latitude in case management), and law.



    Focusing on the guide alone won't get you far. Focusing on 3 missing appendices within the guide : an absolute waste of time.



  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by resources View Post
    In my claim formicon I did not make any reference to a particular law being broken and the defendant has taken advantage of this to make an application to strike out.

    In my reply to this application I say that the facts to which I made reference in my claim form related to breaches of a particular of law.

    However the judge says that my claim as pleaded does not concern breach of this particular law because I did not make any reference to this particular law in my claim form and as a consequence he has struck out my claim

    Irrespectively of what the judge says the issue is whether or not what is stated in 8.14 is correct or not i.e. whether or not the following passage is correct?

    The old adage Facts not law; Facts not evidence remains as true today as ever. It means that you do not have to set out the legal basis of your claim in your pleading, simply the facts that go to make up your claim

    I would like to know also if you know authorities which confirm this passage because I need evidence if I want to appeal against the decision to strike out my claim because after all this document called A_Handbook_for_Litigants _in_Person seems to be only guidance and not the law?

    We need to see exactly what you wrote.

    Can you copy and paste it here please?


  17. #237
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    I queried about these three appendices because they could contain important information I am not aware of

    You make reference to appendix A and Y but not to appendix X which is this which interests me particularly because it concerns directly the drafting of pleadings which is relevant to the striking out of my claim. I would like to know its contents in case it has important information

    Maybe Appendix X and the other two Appendices are in a separate document but I do not know which

    The foreword says that this handbook is specifically aimed to the multi-track because it is very big and some information on it could be relevant only to the multi-track but this does not mean that some information on it which are general information cannot apply also to the small track. This is confirmed because it is made several references to the small claims in this handbook

    My claim has been issued as a small claimicon but the judge in his judgement said that it should go to the multi-track because it is too complex

    Yes this document is only guidance but it is confirmed by CPR 16.2 and 16.4 which says that the claimant should provide a concise statement of facts and not of the law in the claim formicon and in the particulars of claim. It is also confirmed by the Oxford definition of a cause of action

    I cannot copy and paste the contents of my claim form because it contains confidentialicon information.

    However it does not make any reference to the law and the defendant in his application to strike out queried about what my claim could be and he put some assumptions about which law could be concerned by my claim and in my witness statement in reply to this application to strike out I put forward which laws I considered have been broken but the judge told me that it was too late because this information should have been set out in my claim form


  18. #238
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    Can you use a program like MS Paint to obscure confidentialicon details and show us the rest of the claim formicon?

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  19. #239
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    Or copy / print the claim formicon.
    Obscure the identifying information.
    Then scan it.

    It depends if you actually want help or merely wish to argue over irrelevant minutiae like Appendices A and Y.


  20. #240
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    Default Re: Long term casual worker and sending of P45

    click uploadicon and READ

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