Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1
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    Default Pip tribunal hearing/advice **WON**

    JHi, and thanks to all those who contributed to my other thread in respect of ESA, the help has been greatly appreciated and I would appreciate any same kind advice on my PIP Tribunal was has now been listed and will proceed in a few weeks time.

    My initial reason for the Appeal has been based on the time it took the assessment, (approximately 14 minutes) and this was for two conditions, physical because I have a heart condition and for my mental problems which are secondary to the heart condition, PTSD, anxiety and depression.

    During the examination, the assessor just repeated the same questions that l had provided in the questionnaire and no physical examination was carried out, giving the time it took as opposed to other assessments that I have taking

    , it was as if the decision was already made before I walked in there,
    the assessor was and in theory just going through the bare minimal motions which I feel is unfair and not to mention the fabricated report which if true would have taking the assessor about 45 minutes to an hour to conclude what he concluded which was a complete pack of lies in all honesty, my wife who cares for me was at this assessment.

    I feel and this is purely based on previous assessments and not just an assumption that I was denied the right to a full and proper assessment which every claimant should have any rights too, have I got grounds?, thanks


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    In general, you can only appeal (take it to tribunal) if there's been an error in law, rather than you not liking the decision. It sounds as though you do have good grounds to take it to tribunal.

    Can't see how 14 minutes is long enough to make a decision at all. Might as well have not bothered!


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Appeal the decision first and foremost, get that lethargic process started.

    Get your MP involved also, once they have looked at the flawed decision again, and upheld their decision, then it's time to start ripping to shreds the flimsy interrogation papers the fake HCP completed.


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Do you have the report that was used to make the decision? You need that to base your reconsideration (where they look at it again) on.

    As part of my reconsideration, I pointed 1.5 pages of inconsistencies.


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    This is the advice I provided on your other thread, for reference :-

    If you haven't already done so you need to go through the report and basically tear it to pieces. Concentrate on picking up any factual errors. After that you need to sit down with the descriptors and, bearing in mind the 'repeatedly and reliably' criteria, make an as objective assessment as you can of where you should have scored points.

    The assessment guide is here https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ment-providers which provides lots of useful info about how the assessment could have been conducted. I can't see how it could have been done properly in 10 minutes, so you can also mention all the things the assessor didn't do.

    Once you've done all that, try to make it into some sort of logical statement and send it to the tribunal as soon as you can. Make a bullet point list of things you want to be sure to mention to the tribunal at the hearing.

    You must attend the hearing, but try to take some one with you for moral support. If they also know something about your day-to-day difficulties, that would be a bonus. DWP are notorious for not taking account of carer's/relatives evidence, but tribunals do, especially where they haven't much to go in from the assessment report.


    An entirely factual statement from your wife in her own words would be extremely helpful. Try not to help her remember exactly what happened, it doesn't matter if your accounts differ in irrelevant details but it would be noticed if they were identical. She should try to avoid expressing any opinion about what should or should not have been done, just keep to the facts e.g. the assessor asked (your name) if he does his own shopping. (Your name) replied 'Yes, but ...' and the assessor interrupted and prevented him from completing his sentence. He does do his own shopping, but he always does it online so he doesn't have to go out'. As well as providing a statement about the actual assessment, she can provide a statement about how she helps you or what aids you need. You could both try keeping a diary for a few days.

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  6. #6
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Boo View Post
    Appeal the decision first and foremost, get that lethargic process started.

    Get your MP involved also, once they have looked at the flawed decision again, and upheld their decision, then it's time to start ripping to shreds the flimsy interrogation papers the fake HCP completed.
    Thanks for that BB, I have involved my MP, though to date, it has not made a difference, he seems to be pretty much as sitting on the fence, so to speak.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nystagmite View Post
    In general, you can only appeal (take it to tribunal) if there's been an error in law, rather than you not liking the decision. It sounds as though you do have good grounds to take it to tribunal.

    Can't see how 14 minutes is long enough to make a decision at all. Might as well have not bothered!
    Thanks for that Nystagmite, appreciated.

    I am not complaining because I did not like the decision as a rule, I am complaining as to how that decision was achieved which was predominately on the assessor completing a full assessment on 2 different illnesses in 14 minutes.

    Is their an error in law? Maybe the contract between DWP and ATOS has been broken, and the assessor has maybe broken the contract by not providing a service that the DWP expect from ATOS.


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    AFAIK, you don't need to point out where they 'erred in law'' at this stage, all you're doing is telling them that the decision is a fantasy, and to go through the motions of claiming to look at it a second time, before you then take it to the first tier tribunal, it's at this point, after the FTT decision, that you then need to show where they (FTT) erred in law for you to escalate it to the upper tier tribunal.

    Unless they have, of course, moved the goal posts.


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  8. #8
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    The Tribunal Judge in the appeal made an order that the DWP provide the latest records of awards made for DLA, which again was subject to a mandatory reconsideration notice, not based on the fact that DLA was awarded, FEB 2014, but based on the rates granted, DLA was awarded, but I felt the rates were incorrect.

    A couple of questions on the refusal to award more and giving in the mandatory notice is based on the findings and only one of the medical findings that I can walk a mile and in the opinion of the ESA assessor I did not have a significant disability with mobilising, standing and sitting, can the DWP rely on the assumption made by an ESA assessor to rely on a decision not give a higher rate?

    And giving the order made by the Tribunal Judge would the DWP be compelled and in this instance to provide the further evidence that I disclosed with the last award subject to a mandatory, as on the notice its states the reason for this decision and the evidence used 1. Claim Pack. 2. The extra information that you provided us. 3. The ESA medical report dated 12/12/2013, the DWP have conveniently left out and not disclosed the further medical evidence that I sent them, my argument is that without that evidence and in considering the Judges orders they have not fully complied with his order, only part.

    Its funny how this lot conveniently leave out the medical evidence that undermindes their decisions, must be the oldest trick in the book.

    The judge when they ignored his initial order stated that they be barred if they failed to comply, in my opinion the fact that they have not produced all the evidence surely is not abiding with that order full and proper?, so in theory the case should not even be going to a hearing as they have not provided all that they were ordered to disclose, any help would be appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Boo View Post
    AFAIK, you don't need to point out where they 'erred in law'' at this stage, all you're doing is telling them that the decision is a fantasy, and to go through the motions of claiming to look at it a second time, before you then take it to the first tier tribunal, it's at this point, after the FTT decision, that you then need to show where they (FTT) erred in law for you to escalate it to the upper tier tribunal.

    Unless they have, of course, moved the goal posts.
    On that point BB, giving the FTT have allowed the DWP to only provide part material pursuant to an order, and have allowed the DWP to proceed to a hearing on the provisions that the DWP would be barred from proceedings, would not providing the further medical evidence that they all/eged to have considered be an abuse of process, in otherwords, allowing the DWP to conceal any medical evidence that could undermined their decision and that should be considered at the Tribunal hearing, therefore they should have already been barred from proceeedings and according to the Order which was not fully complied with on this occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by reallymadwoman View Post
    This is the advice I provided on your other thread, for reference :-

    If you haven't already done so you need to go through the report and basically tear it to pieces. Concentrate on picking up any factual errors. After that you need to sit down with the descriptors and, bearing in mind the 'repeatedly and reliably' criteria, make an as objective assessment as you can of where you should have scored points.

    The assessment guide is here https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ment-providers which provides lots of useful info about how the assessment could have been conducted. I can't see how it could have been done properly in 10 minutes, so you can also mention all the things the assessor didn't do.

    Once you've done all that, try to make it into some sort of logical statement and send it to the tribunal as soon as you can. Make a bullet point list of things you want to be sure to mention to the tribunal at the hearing.

    You must attend the hearing, but try to take some one with you for moral support. If they also know something about your day-to-day difficulties, that would be a bonus. DWP are notorious for not taking account of carer's/relatives evidence, but tribunals do, especially where they haven't much to go in from the assessment report.


    An entirely factual statement from your wife in her own words would be extremely helpful. Try not to help her remember exactly what happened, it doesn't matter if your accounts differ in irrelevant details but it would be noticed if they were identical. She should try to avoid expressing any opinion about what should or should not have been done, just keep to the facts e.g. the assessor asked (your name) if he does his own shopping. (Your name) replied 'Yes, but ...' and the assessor interrupted and prevented him from completing his sentence. He does do his own shopping, but he always does it online so he doesn't have to go out'. As well as providing a statement about the actual assessment, she can provide a statement about how she helps you or what aids you need. You could both try keeping a diary for a few days.
    All those points as always are very helpful RMW, THANKS.

    I am now considering the report from the assessor, just going through it makes me angry tbh, but I need to tackle this with a clear head and would be grateful if you could help me on a few points.

    Under the heading VARIABILITY, the assessor as left this blank and put "As per condition history" (a) what does Variabilty mean, and should have he reported anything on this as opposed to just mentioning as per condition history? thanks


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Do you have use of a disability advisor? DIAL or some other?


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  10. #10
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Boo View Post
    Do you have use of a disability advisor? DIAL or some other?
    No I don't atm, would you recommend that I use one or is it to late in the day to get one.


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    I didn't use one for my reconsideration and won. (the people who filled in my form were awful)

    I wouldn't focus on how short the assessment was. I'd just go through the criteria and see where you'd score points, giving examples.


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    I on the other hand, used D.I.A.L (Disability Information Advice Line) and they secured my PIP first time round!

    ESA on the other hand, I fought them for three years to win, after I had filled in the form myself.

    But my situation is different, I need someone to help fill forms and explain them to me.


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  13. #13
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Nystagmite View Post
    I didn't use one for my reconsideration and won. (the people who filled in my form were awful)

    I wouldn't focus on how short the assessment was. I'd just go through the criteria and see where you'd score points, giving examples.
    I think you are right Nystagmite, time to concerntrate on what should have been awarded as opposed to what this fraudulent assessor has indicated which is just plain lies.

    That said on the report he has stated the assessment started at 10.00 and was concluded at at 10.19, again if an assessment for two illnesses can be achieved in that space of time, as the DWP own evidence clearly confirms, I would have assumed the person being subject to that assessment has not been giving the rights to a full and proper assessment as to prove his or her entitlement to PIP.


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Whilst I agree you need to focus on where you should have scored points as the last thing you need is for a tribunal to order a new assessment, in addition you must point out that the assessment wasn't long enough to properly consider the effects of one illness never mind two. I'd be surprised if it was possible to get all the adminicon stuff done in that time, such as confirming diagnoses, treatment and medication. I would also recommend going through the assessment guide and pointing out at least two or three things that the assessor definitely didn't do which they should have done.

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  15. #15
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Quote Originally Posted by reallymadwoman View Post
    Whilst I agree you need to focus on where you should have scored points as the last thing you need is for a tribunal to order a new assessment, in addition you must point out that the assessment wasn't long enough to properly consider the effects of one illness never mind two. I'd be surprised if it was possible to get all the adminicon stuff done in that time, such as confirming diagnoses, treatment and medication. I would also recommend going through the assessment guide and pointing out at least two or three things that the assessor definitely didn't do which they should have done.
    My doctor who I was seeing at the time and after explaining that I was experiencing pain in my left arm and after blood tests stated that I was suffering from a new condition, angina, of which I regularly take medication for and was aware of the problems and at that time I had losing breath when walking, she advised me after I had told her that the DWP wanted to do a medical assessment to request a home visit from them because of my condition, I made that request but never got a reply.

    Can evidence like my wife giving an account of what she witnessed at the assessment be sent by email to the Tribunal for them to give to the panel who will be dealing with my appeal?

    And does it have to be writing as being a statement or just a normal email sent message. There is a fair bit that I need to disclose by next Tuesday for the panel to consider, is sending it by email a means of correct discloser?, any help on this and as a matter of urgency would be appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by spitfire1964 View Post
    Can evidence like my wife giving an account of what she witnessed at the assessment be sent by email to the Tribunal for them to give to the panel who will be dealing with my appeal?

    And does it have to be writing as being a statement or just a normal email sent message. There is a fair bit that I need to disclose by next Tuesday for the panel to consider, is sending it by email a means of correct discloser?, any help on this and as a matter of urgency would be appreciated.
    Please can anyone help.


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Please bear with us, spitfire, people will be leading their normal lives. I expect they'll be along later or in the morning with advice for you.

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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    What date is your tribunal, by the way?

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  18. #18
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Quote Originally Posted by honeybee13 View Post
    What date is your tribunal, by the way?

    HB
    Yes the Hearing is on 8th August HB


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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Quote Originally Posted by spitfire1964 View Post
    Can evidence like my wife giving an account of what she witnessed at the assessment be sent by email to the Tribunal for them to give to the panel who will be dealing with my appeal?

    And does it have to be writing as being a statement or just a normal email sent message. There is a fair bit that I need to disclose by next Tuesday for the panel to consider, is sending it by email a means of correct discloser?, any help on this and as a matter of urgency would be appreciated.
    I replied on your other thread when you asked before:-

    An entirely factual statement from your wife in her own words would be extremely helpful. Try not to help her remember exactly what happened, it doesn't matter if your accounts differ in irrelevant details but it would be noticed if they were identical. She should try to avoid expressing any opinion about what should or should not have been done, just keep to the facts e.g. the assessor asked (your name) if he does his own shopping. (Your name) replied 'Yes, but ...' and the assessor interrupted and prevented him from completing his sentence. He does do his own shopping, but he always does it online so he doesn't have to go out'. As well as providing a statement about the actual assessment, she can provide a statement about how she helps you or what aids you need. You could both try keeping a diary for a few days.


    A signed statement would be best, but I'm afraid I can't help regarding whether email service is acceptable. Check their website and any paperwork you've been sent, if email isn't mentioned specifically, then it's safest to assume you have to use the post. Get proof of posting.

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    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Thanks for that RMW, I contacted Tribunal in Cardiff HQ and advised them that I have sent my wife's statement and by recorded delivery, they said that is fine but have advised to send any other evidence within seven days of hearing.

    You mentioned a diary, could you please explain what you mean in regards keeping a diary for a few days, thanks


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