Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #41
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    Yes I did and via email, giving the case number and the date of the hearing that I thought was the trial date, 8th August 2017, the hearing went ahead a day before.

    Giving that I gave that date and HMCTS were aware that I had indicated the wrong hearing date, which is denied, surely they should have seen this and acted accordingly if they had established that there was a mix up in dates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazooka Boo View Post
    If the DJ told them to resit the tribunal and have an ''Oral'' hearing, and you were not present, then they have erred in law, as you were unable to verbally put your side accross.
    When I requested that the DWP be barred from proceedings the DJ made an order that unless they complied with the order they would be barred.

    My argument after this point was that they complied with the direction, but only part presented the material that should have been sent which included the evidence that was used by me to obtain a higher rate of DLA which was successful.

    The DJ ordered the DWP to show details of the award for DLA which included a mandatory reconsideration and the evidence that I relied on, which was not giving. In other words the evidence that could prove my case and that had previous been used and should have been considered as it would form part of the evidence ordered to be disclosed.

    My argument on this point is that the DWP failed to abide two orders, firstly not providing evidence in the first place, but thereafter providing evidence but only part evidence after giving another warning.

    In a nutshell HMCTS not only failed to follow the procedure that they have set, they also allowed that same order to be breached because only part evidence was giving.

    The DJ stated and in correspondence "The Respondent cannot be barred pursuant to the directions which were issued on 7.5.17.This is because the Respondent complied???? within the period stated.

    The appeal should now be listed for hearing."


  2. #42
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Whether or not you can fight this depends solely on the dates on any official communications from the tribunal service, not on what you sent to them even if they should have noticed that you'd got the date wrong.

    What date is shown on the notice of the hearing? Have you had any correspondence after this notice, and if so what hearing date is shown on that?

    RMW
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  3. #43
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Hi RMW, The Clerk to the Tribunal when I made him aware that the date I was giving was for the next day stated that it could be that the administrative centre had made the mistake and the reason for the mix up in dates and because the hearing had already taking place it was to late, and he also stated that I should not attend the next day.

    They have made the mistake not me, and it was not as if they could have rectified it, they could have imo.

    I was told by phone about the date of hearing, no correspondence was received by me to suggest the date was one day earlier RMW.


  4. #44
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Did you receive any correspondence at all about the hearing? If so, what date was on it?

    RMW
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  5. #45
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    I am going to make an immediate application to have this decision " set aside " as it clearly evident that there has been a mistake in the arrangements, there has been other procedurals irregularity and it in the interest of justice to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by reallymadwoman View Post
    Did you receive any correspondence at all about the hearing? If so, what date was on it?
    No I did not receive any correspondence with any dates on it RMW, the last correspondence that I received from the Tribunal was dated 13/7/17.


  6. #46
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    There is no requirement for the Tribunal to notify you in writing of the date of the hearing, they merely need to give reasonable notice.

    If you are adamant that the only notice you received was by telephone and that you were given the wrong date, then you will need to apply for permission to appeal, there is no 'set aside' procedure.

    RMW
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  7. #47
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Well if there is no requirement to notify in writing which I am not disputing, giving notification by phone and give a completely different date would I assume not satisfy giving reasonable notice, because it was incorrect and therefore and I assume not a reasonable excuse.

    Part 3 of the decision of appeal states Setting aside as an option if the grounds for setting aside are relevant, which in this case and giving the reasons for setting aside mirror what has happened to me RMW, a mistake in arrangements, or I was not able to be present and any procedural irregularity, not complying fully with a direction, as was the case, meets the criteria and giving the facts and in the interest of justice to set aside.


  8. #48
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    I have this morning and 4 days after losing my appeal been giving notification of the date for hearing, and after the hearing took place.

    So in otherwords the Tribunal have giving me notice of appeal date, after the appeal was heard, very odd.

    And has been sent from Birmingham, and not from Cardiff, very odd.


  9. #49
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    What are the dates on the letter and the envelope, spitfire?

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  10. #50
    Basic Account Holder spitfire1964 Novitiate



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    Date on the notification 21st July HB

    Letter has been scanned, which will identify when it went through the postal system.

    So there you have it, the Tribunal who are meant to be impartial send you notice of your appeal hearing after the hearing of appeal has been concluded, and you could not give a case, a lose.

    Talk about kangaroo court's, this Country is infested with them.

    Any input on how I should deal with the fact that notice to attend came after the event, would be appreciated, thanks.


  11. #51
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    The only advice I've been able to find is to contact CAB for help.

    It is usually recommended that you get professional help to challenge a tribunal decision.

    RMW
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    OK this is only the FTT yes??

    You need leave to appeal to the UTT on the grounds that they erred in law now.

    And you really do need to find a disability advisor to take this on and direct you.

    I can't help but feel something is missing here, and with the best will in the world, you're going off half cocked and they're exploiting your lack of knowledge.

    In a very very short space of time, you've gone through the initial interrogation, their refusal and magic wand that cures all ills, the MR, and then the FTT?

    Like I said, it took me three years to go jump through all their hoops and then get to the UTT before a sucessful outcome.

    What did the DJ state must happen at the tribunal?
    I stronlgy doubt it said it should only be a paper shuffling exercise, and you didn't need to attend?

    There is plenty of scope to fire this further up the chain, however, you need to find out ''exactly'' what documents they relied on to come to their decision, AND if they were part of your argument that the initial decision should be overturned, then you 'could' say they 'erred in law' as the evidence relied on was flawed.

    Have you demanded a SARicon?

    Do you have the RoP (Record of proceedings) and SoR (Statement of reasons)?


    Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Hi BB and thanks for your valuable advice.

    On the points you raised,, the hearing proceeded in my absence, as I was told the date for hearing was the 8th, it went ahead on the 7th. As I have already pointed out any notification confirming or a cheap way of dealing with matters, and me not being giving the right to put my case, came after the hearing, the notice arrived five days after te case was considered.

    You mention trying to find out what evidence was considered, how do I obtain this information?

    You mention requesting a SARicon, could you please be more specific, and advice would could be achieved and what I should be looking out for to further prove these bullies wrong?

    Am I write to assume that I can immediately request a RoP andSoR?


  14. #54
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    IF, you've not got sight of ALL of the information/evidence they (DWP) used in coming to the decision, then you need to send them a SARicon, which is free https://www.gov.uk/government/public...al-information

    Once you have that info, (40 calender days) then you can go through it and highlight all of the discrepancies within it to then mount a successful tribunal.

    As you were not present at the tribunal, then they should send you the outcome of said tribunal, and any instructions if you feel that they erred in law at coming to that decision.

    The SAR will be two, three, or four A4 envelopes stuffed full of all of your dealings with the DWP from day one.

    AFAIK, and from what I can remember, you need to write to the judge and request a 'SoR' along with the 'RoP', which will show exactly what went on in the tribunal.

    What you're after doing is to pick apart their argument and find the error in law to then proceed to ask to appeal to the UTT.


    Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Evening BB,

    The only reference to evidence that I received was the medical assessment report or should I state the Jackanory fabricated medical assessment report from a two bob health professional, if that's what they claim to be, by the sounds of it the DWP have not even giving the basics, which is not surprising, should they have sent more?,please let me know.

    I have this morning emailed and sent by registered post to the Tribunal in Cardiff a request for them to provide SoR and RoP, should I address this to the judge as well?

    The tribunal have sent a DECISION NOTICE, is this what you are referring too in respect of the outcome?, the DECISION NOTICE concludes "Whilst the tribunal accepts Mr X has anxiety, depression and angina, the nature and extent of the resulting limitations are insufficient to score the required number of points and as a result Mr X does not qualify for either component of Personal Independence Payment.
    I reaching its decision the tribunal placed particular reliance upon the evidence of the papers generally"..

    * No mention of serious heart condition, just mentions angina which has recently been diagnosed, and no mention of PTSD, just mentioned anxiety and depression that I have suffered from for the last thirteen years but deemed unfit for work because of that condition.
    Annoying when and according to this decision they have not considered heart condition and PTSD, but giving a lot of attention and evidently made their decision on the less but still serious disability conditions that I have.


  16. #56
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Yes they will always rely on what evidence suits them best, something which I had made crystal clear to the DJ at one of my tribunals, ''How can they refer to, and use my condition in 2007 then ignore an up to date diagnosis in 2013?''

    They will cherry pick information to suit their needs, which is why you bring them to account, and demand ALL of the paperwork they used in reaching their decision, this way then you can see exactly what they have ignored and what they have used.

    The Decision Notice is one piece of evidence, the SoR will tell you how they arrived at that decision, and what evidence they relied on, the RoP will tell you how the tribunal was conducted, (in your absence) and may only be two or three sentences which the panel will have signed.

    Try and relax, you have a month from the date of the DN to appeal, which can be delayed under certain circumstances, ie you are waiting for the SARicon to land on your doormat, so you can find out where they erred in law so you can mount a successful challenge in the UTT.

    Send them the SAR, recorded delivery, signed for or whatever, just send it but ensure you have ev idence you sent it.

    Then try and find someone who deals with these tribunals, as they will be able to help you quicker, and will be able to direct you as to what it is you need.

    Is your DR onside?


    Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!
    HOW DO I START A NEW THREAD?



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  17. #57
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Yes DR is onside, has since being shoved on UC giving a certificate giving another mental condition to sign me off for three months, to add to the other medical reasons that have been assessed and documented by proper medical people and specialist as opposed to someone trained in bones and ligaments ( HCP) paid on the bonus of taking the most vulnerable off the benefits system by telling porkies as to profit.

    Just think the whole process and the way disabled people are being targeted and treated as vile, I'm trying not to get angry and I wont get angry because I could not treat people in this way, and I need to remind myself of that, still not right though Bazooka Boo.

    I will request all the evidence that was used, trust me.


  18. #58
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    It would appear and on the evidence of the email corrospodence that my witness statement and my wifes witness statement were not considered, there is no compulsory acknowledgement OF BOTH EMALS with statements when sent, but when the same emails were sent yesterday, they were acknowledge which seems odd and would suggest that my corrosponce only a few days before the hearing were being blocked or more importantly ignored by the Tribunal, how nice of them to go to all that trouble.


  19. #59
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    Need to try and stay focused SF, as emotional and criminal it is, we have to play them at their own game, fight them with their own rules, exposing them and humiliating them in the best way possible.

    Highlighting just how Dickensian they really are.

    Use your time wisely, research as much as possible, including the HCP, what qualifications they have, any expertise they may or may not have to assess someone with your particular needs/issues/disability, if they are a bona fide GP, complaining to the GMC.

    Lodge a formal complaint with ATOS regarding their flawed assessment system, and the fake HCP they use to hit the targets they have been given.

    All the time, copy in your local MP, regardless whether they care or not, it needs to be hammered home to them all, that if they were to treat a dog like this, they'd be put in prison.

    Keep a diary of events, collate names, letters, info, anything and everything prepare to be in it for the long haul, like I say, three miserable dark years it took me, then another 18 months to get the Independent Case Examiner (ICE) to uphold my complaint, and award me 100 compo from the DWP.

    Not a massive amount by any stretch, but it was a win, and the next time your name crosses their desks, they'll know that they need to be absolutely water tight and 100% accurate, or you'll nail em to the floor!


    Who ever heard of someone getting a job at the Jobcentre? The unemployed are sent there as penance for their sins, not to help them find work!
    HOW DO I START A NEW THREAD?



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  20. #60
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    Default Re: Pip tribunal hearing/ advice

    How are you getting on with finding someone to help you, spitfire?

    HB

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