and where is all the revenus for fuel tax going to come from to give the over paid MP / civil servants Wxxxxx salaries and not earned pensions?

Increased NI and self employed taxs on the electric white van man?

One a more serious note, when electric vehicles are in significant numbers, and peoples investment is way to high to walk away from - road tax on EV seems an obvious situation. Cant repair roads for free (not that the road tax gets used on roads)

Just like charging points free when the batteries were smaller and there were fewer electric cars to use them, but are now starting to be charged (sic)

Loss leaders

 

applying the same to you 3kw charger (comapred to the 120kw supercharger)

that would give you 18kw at best in 6 hours.

 

again happy to be corrected if you can tell me where I have gone wrong. My physics days are far back.

your probably right looking down that

looking at my car i have a 24kwh battery, i use about 60-70% of that on average in a day...

so about 18kwh to charge is about 6 hours

mines not run off a 3pin lead but is on a separate 32a breaker directly after the meter outside. it goes into a dedicated podpoint charging base and from there to the car...

i simply hadn't realised you were using the tesla stats (i tend to look at it based off my car sorry)

so you cant go on holiday then?

Hmm my 3kw charger does a 90 mile charge in 6 hours

 

Where's your figures from?

 

Plus it's a timer to charge from night rates

of course, solid oxide fuel cells will save the day. Only problem is the materials used to make them are non-stoichiometric so you cant upscale their production easily and they suffer terribly in normal traffic as they conk out when absorbing other gases so a ban on internal combustion engines is needed before you can roll them out.

Now, what about cost? At the moment there is a massive subsidy on each sale so when that is dropped how many peopel will be able to afford to buy one as a replaceemnt for their existing vehicle?

I also think that peopel will take umbrage that the worst polluting vehicles on the roads will remain because the public wont like the idea of banning fire engines and ambulances, buses etc.

Scrap the use of petroleum as fuel and 40% of all the govts tax income goes as well. then there is the increase in unemployment. The law of unintended consequences.....

want to save the planet? get rid of 2 billion people as that is the current overpopulation level but who do you allow to make the decision as to how this can be achieved

Ericsbrother

I would argue that the world is not over populated in terms of space to accommodate all people or lacks resources.

The problem is the economic system is a bust model and it is being continued as a debt bubble, as Politicians don't know how to change it.

Take a look at most of the issues and the problem is economics, not science, lack of skills or lack of human labour. There is no reason why there is insufficent housing in the UK, other than economics. Government could have built a lot of social housing around the UK and have assets on their books, while helping reduce rent costs affecting housing benefit cost.

There is no reason why UK Goverment can't facilitate companies in making the UK a leader in new vehicle technology. I suspect that UK Universities and companies have invented technology that has had to be taken up abroad, because the UK lacks investors willing to take risks.

your probably right looking down that

 

looking at my car i have a 24kwh battery, i use about 60-70% of that on average in a day...

so about 18kwh to charge is about 6 hours

 

mines not run off a 3pin lead but is on a separate 32a breaker directly after the meter outside. it goes into a dedicated podpoint charging base and from there to the car...

 

i simply hadn't realised you were using the tesla stats (i tend to look at it based off my car sorry)

No problem.

90 miles from 18kw is still massively impressive and far in excess of the Tesla's supposed bleeding edge tech, which seems to need somewhere around 30kw for 90 miles, but I have seen similar strange (to my current (sic) understanding) claims regarding leaf and zeo charges from seemingly low kw power supplies (and batteries).

Any idea why a 3kw charger would need a 32A circuit straight from the meter rather than from the consumer unit? Although a dedicated circuit as with a cooker or shower makes sense - especially to a garage.

Is it 3 phase perhaps?

That might explain a number of outstanding questions I have.

(The heavier duty Tesla charger is stated as a 240v 20A circuit - way less than your 32A)

I must be missing something.

Question outstanding

If 100kw Tesla battery does 300 miles - roughly what the tests say (maybe more in ideal circumstances, less in more testing circumstances)

120kv gives half charge in 30 mins - 50kv (20% loss or 20% cant be used for the sake of simplicity) - I assume they mean the larger battery.

Looks balanced to there

1kv of battery gives about 3 miles

That gives from tesla stats (perhaps less up to 20% for charging losses - but maybe not)

For a 3kw charger - up to 3 * 3 = 9 miles per hour of charge or 7ish with 20% loss.

For a 7kw charger - up to 7 * 3 = 21 miles per hour of charge or 16ish with the 20% deducted(not the 4-5 stated in the link ??)

Note, that batteries commonly charge lots faster when near empty than when near full. So the charge taken by the battery per hour is likely very different at each end of the charging cycle.

So it may well be 4-5 miles per hour charge if the battery is already quite full

Got to this stage then did a search based on what it led me to believe

and see here

https://forums.tesla.com/en_GB/forum/forums/charging-rates-1

mines not run off a 3pin lead but is on a separate 32a breaker directly after the meter outside. it goes into a dedicated podpoint charging base and from there to the car...

thats where we strayed apart

That 32a connection is not 3kw its about 13kw

so 13 * your per kw leccy bill

or about 1.50 per hour to charge at my example 12p per kw rate.

No problem.

 

90 miles from 18kw is still massively impressive and far in excess of the Tesla's supposed bleeding edge tech, which seems to need somewhere around 30kw for 90 miles, but I have seen similar strange (to my current (sic) understanding) claims regarding leaf and zeo charges from seemingly low kw power supplies (and batteries).

 

Any idea why a 3kw charger would need a 32A circuit straight from the meter rather than from the consumer unit? Although a dedicated circuit as with a cooker or shower makes sense - especially to a garage.

Is it 3 phase perhaps?

 

That might explain a number of outstanding questions I have.

 

 

(The heavier duty Tesla charger is stated as a 240v 20A circuit - way less than your 32A)

 

I must be missing something.

I think the breaker is 32a I might be wrong. The reason it's in a separate breaker is simply due to the issues with running a massive armoured cable through the wall when there space in an existing outside box

To be honest I am no way physics or electric minded (beyonder a bit of my own wiring anyway)

Try looking up the specs for a 3kwh pod point as thas the charger I have

 

Any idea why a 3kw charger would need a 32A circuit straight from the meter rather than from the consumer unit? Although a dedicated circuit as with a cooker or shower makes sense - especially to a garage.

thats what i was thinking.

was guessing that a home charge wld be like one of those normal car battery chargers that can have a 'fast' charge above the normal (trickle) charge, but still work from the plug? or is that wide, am not a sparky

otherwise, how much wld it cost to put a proper 'podpoint' in, wld it require a separate meter?

I read earlier that if you buy an electric car, many of the manufacturers will pay a contribution towards the home electrics work needed. It is not a cheap job to install a fast charge point.

It is related to 3 phase.

Another issue on electric cars is the cost of replacement battery. Someone was apparently quoted £6,000 to replace a battery on a Mitsubishi hybrid. They could not afford it and there was no lease deal available, so they were stuck. Is this true ? I had heard of problems, but i thought some manufacturers guaranteed the battery for the life of the car.

I think the breaker is 32a I might be wrong. The reason it's in a separate breaker is simply due to the issues with running a massive armoured cable through the wall when there space in an existing outside box

 

To be honest I am no way physics or electric minded (beyonder a bit of my own wiring anyway)

 

Try looking up the specs for a 3kwh pod point as thas the charger I have

Its been 20 years since I needed to get my head around the arcane and esoteric art of electrickery, but I'm getting back in the frame - albeit a bit reluctantly

I'll correct my errors here

The home wall socket type connection would probably be max 3.5 - 4kw (so your 3kw sounds good) although it could be put on a 32A fused circuit as could anything of lesser draw than the 32A,

and even though 3kw is within the limits of a house 3pin, but would undoubtedly be best on its own circuit for regular use.

The 'Tesla 240v 20A' circuit would be the 7.5kw (peak) charger referred in the links now I've bothered to kick my head into gear.

The superchargers 30 mins to 50wh 1/2 charge makes mathematical and logical sense if charging at 100kwh of the 120kwh available. and Teslas stats simply come out at about 1kw = 3miles which agrees.

My previous statement that the peak for a home 3 pin is 11kw is garbage. It might be a very theoretical limit,

13A (your common 13a fused plug) is a bit under 5kw at the fuse instantly blowing.

Home wall Dual sockets are rated to 20A.

Apologies to all for that complete drivel. I dont know where my head must have been - it was even telling me - theres something wrong here - what you missing?

Leaves us with the issue of 18kw (3kw * 6 hours assuming its giving 100% through the 6 hours) generating 90 miles though?

Which is 5 miles per KW compared to the latest greatest Tesla 100kw battery = 300ish miles (about 3 miles per kw)

The figures from the linked pages are all MASSIVELY contradictory despite me possibly clearing up at least some of my mistakes.

Giving me brain burn. I give up.

all calcs based on 220v

Kilowatts (Volts x Amps x PF x 1.732)/1000

pf ignored

ah - theres some error - I've used 3 phase calc

-still had enough.

lost me there toby

for a layman (me);

a leccy car can be trickle charged at home via the normal plug?

a 'fast' charge via the normal plug could be poss depending on the charger (but on a separate circuit/breaker wld be preferable), but it wld cost more than a trickle charge?

a proper 'podpoint' (preferable, and no doubt the norm with new builds in the future) wld currently require significant circuitry?

lost me there toby

for a layman (me);

a leccy car can be trickle charged at home via the normal plug?

a 'fast' charge via the normal plug could be poss depending on the charger (but on a separate circuit/breaker wld be preferable), but it wld cost more than a trickle charge?

a proper 'podpoint' (preferable, and no doubt the norm with new builds in the future) wld currently require significant circuitry?

Found an electric vehicle forum.

https://speakev.com/threads/whats-required-for-22kw-charging.21205/

As you will see from the discussion in the link, it is quite complicated.

From what i have found out, the actual charger is fitted by the car manufacturer to the car on the production line. The chargers vary and there is often a choice to upgrade to a faster charger.

In regard to home charging, it is whether your supply is adequate for a fast charge. Most homes are not 3 phase supply equipped for say a faster charge option on a Tesla.

Most people buying an electric vehicle are going to require their home charging options reviewed by an electrician that installs the charging points. Ideally people should do this before buying an electric car.

this is going back six months so it might be my memories faulty but here's what I remember

I have 2 charging cables came with the car - a three pin and a type 2 to type 1 for charging points

one is a 3 pin socket cable, I was told this was limited to a 2kwh charge as it would not be on a dedicated socket - I guess this was down to the possibilities of overload

I don't tend to use the other cable as i had a charging point with a dedicated cable fitted

the cost of the charging point was £779

the government grant was £500

because I bought a used leaf (ex-demo) from a Nissan dealer there was an offer where Nissan paid the other £279

when I give a range of 90 miles that's based off a full battery - the 18kwh is down to me only charging about 60-70% each night as that's all I've used.

the car has a built in timer which I set to charge when my night rate is on - i pay about 7p per kwh at the moment on that so about £1.26

at this point im averaging about 50 miles a day and having about 40 miles left on the clock when i plug it in

i just nipped and checked the breaker and it doesn't seem to have any values written on it

this is going back six months so it might be my memories faulty but here's what I remember

 

I have 2 charging cables came with the car - a three pin and a type 2 to type 1 for charging points

 

one is a 3 pin socket cable, I was told this was limited to a 2kwh charge as it would not be on a dedicated socket - I guess this was down to the possibilities of overload

I don't tend to use the other cable as i had a charging point with a dedicated cable fitted

 

the cost of the charging point was £779

the government grant was £500

because I bought a used leaf (ex-demo) from a Nissan dealer there was an offer where Nissan paid the other £279

 

when I give a range of 90 miles that's based off a full battery - the 18kwh is down to me only charging about 60-70% each night as that's all I've used.

 

the car has a built in timer which I set to charge when my night rate is on - i pay about 7p per kwh at the moment on that so about £1.26

at this point im averaging about 50 miles a day and having about 40 miles left on the clock when i plug it in

 

i just nipped and checked the breaker and it doesn't seem to have any values written on it

All that makes complete sense labrat

I misunderstood and thought you got 90 miles from a 6 hours charge at 3kw

its ok - it probably doesn't help that i don't fully understand the electrics myself - if im honest i brought the car because of the lower maintenance

namely, i looked at everything my last dozen cars had failed on

turbo - not got one

exhaust - not got one

water pump - not got one

oil system - not got one

fuel pump - not got one

leaking fuel tank - not got one

and went lets try it and see how it goes

I still maintain they should be called coal powered vehicles.

The electrics..... Above my pay grade.

But I do know that the manufacturers statistics are based on new batteries and people are saying that after one years use they cant charge the batteries above 80%.

Battery degradation.

I do know that lithium mines are just as bad for the environment.

Over the lifetime of the vehicle it will only produce 7 tonnes less co2.

apparently the new impending (not for awhile yet though) 'solid state' lion batteries will have less of an adverse environmental impact (ie re mining), whilst also being more efficient.

for now, it seems that the main difference taking all things into account is re emissions? and perhaps other things such as running costs as has been posted.

it all ties in; volvo announce their future cars all electric, mini announces electric, etc. then the gov't announces forthcoming all electric...

But I do know that the manufacturers statistics are based on new batteries and people are saying that after one years use they cant charge the batteries above 80%.

Battery degradation.

Had my i3 just on three years and have no indication of this. My batteries are guaranteed for eight years.

a proper 'podpoint' (preferable, and no doubt the norm with new builds in the future) wld currently require significant circuitry?

It requires a separate circuit but it didn't take long (maybe a couple of hours) and I only had normal electrics in the house previously so not difficult to do. From what I can see they connect just before the consumer unit which then goes to a dedicated breaker box (like a mini consumer unit). Then all they do is run a cable from that to wherever you want the charge point located, pop the charge point on your chosen spot and hook it up.

if im honest i brought the car because of the lower maintenance

We looked at it at first because OH has a gammy knee and were looking at cars he could get in and out of easily. We weren't looking for an electric car. Strangely when we went to pick it up his knee could cope with a test drive in an i8

But I do know that the manufacturers statistics are based on new batteries and people are saying that after one years use they cant charge the batteries above 80%.

Battery degradation.

 

Had my i3 just on three years and have no indication of this. My batteries are guaranteed for eight years.

How do you know this ? The batteries will still charge fully, but the mileage range under same conditions may gradually reduce. So you might have been able to drive say 100 mile on full charge and then after say 1 year, for the same journey, road conditions, speed etc, the car will only achieve 95 miles. After 2 years the car might be down to 90 miles range etc etc.

If the deterioration in battery performance is very gradual, a car owner might not really notice it or think reduced range is down to road conditions, weather, different journeys etc.

The diagnostic software that you have on the car which shows battery condition might not give any indication of degradation.

No expert on this issue which is more complex than my average brain can handle. If it is true that batteries have to be replaced when performance drops below a certain level, then i could see consumers and manufacturers getting into legsl arguments. If you noticed within the 8 years guarantee that performance was only 50% of what it should be, what could you do ?

How do you know this ? The batteries will still charge fully, but the mileage range under same conditions may gradually reduce.

I can only go by familiar journeys and what I've come to expect. The range readout is very accurate and I'm still getting what I've got used to. If the battery only charged to 95% would my range readout reflect that?

If you noticed within the 8 years guarantee that performance was only 50% of what it should be, what could you do ?

Honestly haven't looked into that. Will ask BMW next time it's in for a service - only had one so far and I know batteries were checked. I don't think they'd expect to change all at once from general chat with them. It's more an expectation that one would fail and be replaced but I do take your point and will ask.