I was going to buy an electric bicycle, but I bought a second hand Mondeo instead - it was cheaper.

I was going to buy an electric bicycle, but I bought a second hand Mondeo instead - it was cheaper.

 

And after that 07:05 lap, back to the garage for a quick 12 hours charge...

Didn't look like a Nissan leaf though: did they just make a face lift?

The big issue is that electric cars are NOT green - as already stated here.

The fuel (electricity) generated is not green, the batteries and hydrogen cells are definitely the opposite of green, and are slow to recharge and low in distance ... and the monetary cost is extortionate.

What are the options?

Pure hydrogen as a pressurised liquid, lovely as that would be in monetary, availability, distance and green credentials, it is perhaps a none starter.

Simply because of the high pressure volatility.

Just imagine a few thousand 'jimbos and 'janebos charging around in small hydrogen bombs, stomping out their fags with their hobnail boots as they fumble the pressure hose to fill them up.

Bit of a crash turns into Beirut under Israeli bombardment.

Hydrogen Peroxide is a possibility.

Highly corrosive, would require tougher engine components and fuel leads/tank, but perhaps a real option. Certainly cheaper than electric cars - and hybrids a real option.

Might have to be much lower powered cars - but AT LEAST ideal town runarounds and trips to the seaside jobbies - even in Essex pushchair form. Probably good motorway bruisers too.

Still Nasty dangerous stuff though.

slow to recharge and low in distance ... and the monetary cost is extortionate.

Do you mean cost to buy? I agree they aren't cheap but the new Tesla can be bought for around the cost of a similar sized petrol engine car. I really don't get the slow to recharge thing. I'll go along with a couple of hundred miles being comparatively 'low in distance' but if you are doing a longer journey than that you should stop for a break anyway and half an hour isn't unreasonable for a motorway pit stop. By the time you've had a coffee and been to the loo you're just about ready to hit the road again recharged.

I get that you don't like the technology and I understand it isn't the answer to the planet's woes but the negative points you make about actually using them don't ring true for those of us with real experience.

Do you mean cost to buy? I agree they aren't cheap but the new Tesla can be bought for around the cost of a similar sized petrol engine car.

If I could get a tesla for the price of a fiesta or focus even the Titaniums with all the frills I probably would

Your petrol car must be a Maserati

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/used-cars/tesla

I really don't get the slow to recharge thing. I'll go along with a couple of hundred miles being comparatively 'low in distance' but if you are doing a longer journey than that you should stop for a break anyway and half an hour isn't unreasonable for a motorway pit stop. By the time you've had a coffee and been to the loo you're just about ready to hit the road again recharged.

My sympathies to you, but I think you are in the minority needing a 8-10 hours break to go to the loo every 200 miles.

The Tesla, with the recommended 240v recharge point, gets about 31 miles per hour of recharge., with around 10 hours to a full charge for the optional +$10,000 larger 265 mile (as tested) battery

https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/11/how-quickly-does-the-tesla-model-s-battery-charge/

I get that you don't like the technology and I understand it isn't the answer to the planet's woes but the negative points you make about actually using them don't ring true for those of us with real experience.

I love the concept of the technology

Its just real world practicality I have the issues with.

Trouble is the cost, size and weight of the batteries/cells to give real world performance means it cant be put in a cheap little town runaround where it could do so very well - yet.

The new Tesla is going to be around £25k. A fast charge takes about 30 minutes - think they say 25 minutes to 80% charged. Even charging at a home point doesn't take anywhere near the times you are quoting.

The new Tesla is going to be around £25k. A fast charge takes about 30 minutes - think they say 25 minutes to 80% charged. Even charging at a home point doesn't take anywhere near the times you are quoting.

We'll see what the 'new' Tesla specs and price is if they arrive

Currently a tad short of 60k is the budget end

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-reviews/tesla

Those figures I quoted were test figures, as linked, and were if using the recommended 20A 240v Tesla charger, which aint no 'plug it in a 13A 3 pin socket job.

Now the superchargers are quoted as

"Stay charged while you’re on the road using the Tesla Supercharger network. Placed along well travelled routes, a Supercharger provides up to 170 miles of range in as little as 30 minutes."

I would say upto 150 miles with the 100kw battery was more realistic in real world conditions.

and in my stomping ground of east midlands, Lincolnshire, Norfolk and Yorkshire :

There are about 3of those

https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus#/bounds/53.6163446,0.3562636999999995,52.6402179,-0.8206513999999743,d?search=supercharger&name=Lincolnshire,%20United%20Kingdom

Note:

13a (house power socket) chargers provide about 11kw of charge,

the superchargers provide about 120kw.

For reference a decent electric shower is about 9kw.

So 30 mins to half charge (at best) with the superchargers would equate to ..

about 330mins - five and a half hours to half charge with a GOOD normal 3 pin power socket in of recent modern spec. (I wouldn't run that level of power regularly through a 13a wall socket)

or about 3 hours to half charge with a tesla special 240v 20A circuit (like a cooker circuit)

This would enable about 100 miles day (more than enough for an average day for most) while maintaining the battery full to enable up to about 200-300 miles if necessary (depending on battery capacity and condition)

The new Tesla batteries are up to 90 or 100kw from 60+85 so should manage about 300 miles in practical use when in good condition.

But still darned expensive for an average household.

addendum

I over specified the 'home' power socket charger at the max rating the socket could provide - which could be unsafe as I alluded

.

The 3 pin home power socket type charger which you would also use at all non specialist charging points is actually 'only' 7kw,

so only adds about 4 miles of travel per hour of charge

So if you use this at home you would add about 50/55 miles of travel on a 12 hour overnight charge.

Although given the cost of the vehicles, adding a 20a circuit to charge the car faster would be a trivial cost but this would still be a VERY slow charge compared to the superchargers

Interesting

These are a fair bit more affordable

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-search?make=RENAULT&model=ZOE&postcode=ln12nf&radius=1500&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=New&price-from=500&search-target=usedcars&quicksearch=true

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/renault/zoe

Britain to ban sale of all diesel and petrol cars and vans from 2040

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/25/britain-to-ban-sale-of-all-diesel-and-petrol-cars-and-vans-from-2040

There's over 20 years to work on the technology - and hopefully improve it so the alternative works for all. With our population and love of our cars it will take some doing.

electric cars? hope no sun flares in those later years ,

what happened to the prediction of flying cars lol?

what happened to the prediction of flying cars lol?

It won't happen until they have the security needed. Could you imagine self driven flying cars in the hands of criminals, terrorists ?

In theory, flying cars are possible now. But they would be very expensive and there is aviation law, as well as other laws, making it very difficult, if you wanted to fly a car from say Surrey to central London, it would be pretty impossible. With Gatwick and Heathow on route, tall buildings etc, you would have to register route/time and then land at a helicopter or other aircraft landing facility miles away. You could not land a flying car on the roof of say a Bank in Canary Wharf.

World’s first flying car finally goes on sale – and it’s just £425,000!

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/08/worlds-first-flying-car-finally-goes-on-sale-and-its-just-425000-6622084/#ixzz4nvPc8Js4

There's over 20 years to work on the technology - and hopefully improve it so the alternative works for all. With our population and love of our cars it will take some doing.

Whats the battery hire/lease/buy situation currently in real world use hightail?

Tried to look but it confused the heck out of me.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/toyota-apos-next-generation-electric-084001030.html

Nice to see that becoming mainstream news snowdragon.

MIT and samsumg have been working on these forabout 10 years, they are still 5-10 years away at best guesstimates.

They replace the fluid electrolyte with a solid one, theoretically allowing a much higher energy density and without the problems of fluid electrolytes. Possibly being effectively as efficient as modern capacitors, but more more more

Models project 2-3 times the capacity if they can find or create the right substances (and possibly looong lives and much lighter)

There is still the issue of a heavy duty power supply to charge them at that speed/rate. Connect it up to a three pin household power socket, you are still talking about it charging at the 7kw rate of about 4 - 5 miles of travel per hour.

Bl**dy great jump leads to an electricity substation comes to mind.

OR a kite in a thunderstorm ...

heh

Imagine that.

House with ww2 air raid blimps floating above their house with copper cable running down hoping for a thunderstorm to get their cars charged in the 10 hours available until the 200 mile trip to work the next day.

Upgrades from the 200ft aluminum poles.

Your blimp is in my airspace

no it aint

I'm gonna shoot it down if you dont move it

Blimps might block enough of the suns rays to reduce the suns heating of the earth whilke generating lift - BONUS

A decent wind and the sky would look like a ball of wool that a cats had a field day with.

All those crossed wires and a bruiser storm coming

Throw the lever Igor, Throw the lever now ..

A million volt lightning strike

but 250,000 lightning rods means thats only 4v each

of course the rich folk have 300ft rods and get 6v

Hmm my 3kw charger does a 90 mile charge in 6 hours

Where's your figures from?

Plus it's a timer to charge from night rates

Hmm my 3kw charger does a 90 mile charge in 6 hours

 

Where's your figures from?

 

Plus it's a timer to charge from night rates

tesla (usually claim about 15% higher for optimum testing conditions compared to the car site tests) + The Tesla battery capacities and charger rating are quite well documented and in the links I supplied

and autocar + cars.com (about testing teslas) - linked

and building/electrical regs (about the power from a household socket)

autocar or cars gives the 4-5 miles per hour from the 7kw charger as tested

The Tesla supplied 120kw and 30 mins half charge supercharger stats

(= the 50kw half 100kw battery charge claimed not the pure math 60kw - so quite some losses which I ignored as roughly was OK and was in favour of better stats for the electric vehicles)

and Tesla spec the 7kw home charger

and the special 240v 20a circuit (whos charging power I'm not so sure on as I'm not sure of its specs - but I think its safe to assume its higher than 7kw but way less than a supercharger)

my mistaken 11kw (peak to be expected from a 13a 3 pin house socket) is simply divide the 120kw + 30 mins of the supercharger figures

- later corrected to the actual 7kw spec as stated by Tesla and car.com.

- and they all seem to match and align

Happy to be corrected if they are wrong - I linked the sources.

applying the same to you 3kw charger (comapred to the 120kw supercharger)

that would give you 18kw at best in 6 hours.

again happy to be corrected if you can tell me where I have gone wrong. My physics days are far back.

Its got me thinking a little harder regarding costs and practicality.

Battery apparently carry a Tesla limited warranty for 8 years (some also have mileage limitations

The batteries cost as much as a an entire very nice recent 2nd hand Ford focus 1.6tdci Titanium (45-50mpg around town 65-70mpg on runs)

The batteries will deteriorate at somewhere around 7-9% per year (average Not Tesla stats - its what happens with very high quality li-ion batteries - cheaper ones are MUCH worse)

So three years will see you at about 3/4 capacity - deterioration will likely speed up after that.

The Tesla limited warranty has very careful wording about that and warranty replacements.

(looks like tesla will only replace if theres a FAULT - and then only with a recon battery guaranteed to have the power the faulty battery had before the fault - not the original power level)

So if you charge about half - 42kw per night - say roughly 12p per Kw - thats about 4,50 a day 'running costs' for about 90 - 100 miles

The Focus will need 7-8 litres of diesel for that - about 9 quid

So the 'fuel' running cost are only about half a decent diesel, even ignoring the depreciation costs of the battery and its ongoing quite significant deterioration

Factor in a new battery in 8 years (easily less than half its capacity left and increasing heat issues, possibly much worse)

Overly simplistic, and were there real world changing green benefits ...

- but like the running costs they aren't anywhere near as good as some allude.

again - happy to be corrected if I've made a booboo

I would like a hover car or maybe we can try teleportation:madgrin:

I want a giraffe

So I can give it a huge feed and some senna,

then take it out for a ride, just in front of some horse riders

Literally give them a taste of their own medicine.

and where is all the revenus for fuel tax going to come from to give the over paid MP / civil servants Wxxxxx salaries and not earned pensions?