Not a major issue, but an annoying one.

Went into our local Post Office (PO) yesterday (Saturday) which is a small shop run by Husband and wife to post a small parcel.

Husband looks after the Postal services,

he took the parcel via the Screened off PO section and charged me the £3.40 postal costs.

I paid using my contactless debit card which as yet hasn't shown on my statement.

My 6yr old grandson who was with me wanted a toy he'd seen for him and his sister

I bought them at the separate 'shop counter' where Postmaster's wife works selling papers, sweets, toys etc and she rang up £11.98 on her terminal.

Using the same card she asked me to insert the card into her separate machine rather than use contactless and she took the payment, gave me my receipt and off we went.

Looking at the receipt later I noticed it said 'Cash withdrawal'

and sure enough, when I looked at my on-line statement there was the £11.98 showing as a cash withdrawal which came out instantly as if I'd taken £20 from an ATM.

This was the second time they'd done this, the first time I passed it off as a mistake.

So, question?

Should a Debit card payment be taken as a cash withdrawal in a shop for normal retail goods waiting the 2-3 days like every other transaction for goods paid by card before showing up on the statement or, is there any kind of regulation which prohibits this?

Someone once said there was a difference between using contactless and inserting the card,

but not sure of the correctness of that or how that reflects on statements, but this 'cash withdrawal' stunt I believe is wrong.

Seems to me, this PO is taking advantage of it's PO status to offer cash, but before I say anything I just wanted to know if rules are being broken, be they banking rules, card transaction rules or legally?

Thoughts welcome.

Thanks

What difference?

In effect you've withdrawn £11.98 and then paid that cash for your purchase.

Why are you bothered?

You can use the PO to deposit/withdraw funds on most UK bank accounts, so it sounds like they have processed your £11.98 as a banking transaction, rather than a normal retail card purchase.

Assuming this wasn't a mistake, then I'm guessing that they've deliberately done this as they will be paid a separate fee (by your bank) for this transaction type, which they wouldn't get if they put it through as a card purchase.

Ultimately they shouldn't be doing this, but it doesn't really impact you as a consumer so I'm not sure it's worth making a fuss over.

Are the two terminals different in anyway andrew ?

I do agree however, that it was a purchase and not a cash withdrawal and that is how it should have been processed.

Thanks for your comments folks.

BazzaS - why am I bothered? Because it shouldn't be happening that's why as with most things posted on this forum that people complain about, and if they are doing it to me, they are doing it to dozens of others. If' I'd have had the cash in my pocket I'd have paid that, but the paying for goods is not the issue, it's the abuse of their position.

Migster and CB - the terminal is on a counter outside of the Postoffice area which is locked and behind glass, this is a separate terminal and different to the one I used posting my parcel. The wife though does take Postal items on her till and prints stamps from her own system so I guess the two may be linked.

I'm more interested in what they are supposed to do rather than the value or paying for it.

Thanks

andrew

Abuse of position?

They may be profiting from:

a) a fee paid them by the bank for a "cash withdrawal", and/or

b) avoiding a fee charged to them by the bank for a debit card transaction,

However, I'd prefer that money stays with a local post office supporting the local community than one of the retail banking giants. So, not really an "abuse of position".

What harm are they causing you?,

You say "it shouldn't be happening", but not why "it shouldn't be happening". Of all the wrongs to consumers you could want corrected : why is this even 'on your radar'?

If this is one of the worst things happening to you such that you feel the need to complain about it : be glad!

Of course, you could always tell her "I want to use contactless" or "put it through as a debit card payment not a cash withdrawal" ; but then we should expect to hear you gripe when they add a card payment surcharge or increase prices ......

Thanks BazzaS for your wisdom, in the broader scheme of things there are far more important issues people face I totally agree, but then I said that from the start above.

"Not a major issue, but an annoying one."

Not wishing to repeat myself but I mentioned that I had been told when using contactless cards there was a difference in the processing of a transaction between one which used Contactless and one which required inserting the card and using a Pin WRT showing on one's statement. My first point was 'what was that difference?'

My second point was as far as banking procedures are concerned and how retailers use (or abuse) their position. Why should they process this as a cash transaction? If Sainsbury's or Tesco were doing this there would be an outcry because people are accustomed to that 2-3 days grace before it hits their account (The amounts are irrelevant).

The moral of seeing them survive rather than the finance companies I agree, but as a Judge once said to me when I put in a Counterclaim to an action against me which I actually felt uncomfortable doing morally, but had the necessity to do, and I told her so she said - " We are not here to judge the morals Andrew1, we are here to judge the facts" - so I stuck with the facts and on the facts, I won!

I was just looking for the facts.

Should they do this or shouldn't they? If they shouldn't what regulation, if anyone knows off the top of their head, applies?

Your input is most appreciated.

Thanks BazzaS for your wisdom, in the broader scheme of things there are far more important issues people face I totally agree, but then I said that from the start above.

 

"Not a major issue, but an annoying one."

 

Not wishing to repeat myself but I mentioned that I had been told when using contactless cards there was a difference in the processing of a transaction between one which used Contactless and one which required inserting the card and using a Pin WRT showing on one's statement. My first point was 'what was that difference?'

For the reasons previously stated, and additionally those stated below : who cares?, There may be a difference, but not one that actually matters.

My second point was as far as banking procedures are concerned and how retailers use (or abuse) their position. Why should they process this as a cash transaction? If Sainsbury's or Tesco were doing this there would be an outcry because people are accustomed to that 2-3 days grace before it hits their account (The amounts are irrelevant).

I use online banking, mostly via an app on my phone.

Let us say I have £100 balance, and a £200 agreed overdraft.

My balance shows as £100, but I also see "£300 available".

If I then pay £11.98 by a debit card transaction, later that day I see "balance £100, £288.02 available" and then (2-3 days later) "balance £88.02, £288.02 available".

So, the "balance taking 2-3 days to decrease" is somewhat illusory : it isn't there to spend, and won't prevent me going into an unauthorised overdraft (spending more than the sum available).

It might just keep me from going into an authorised overdraft.

Mind you, most authorised overdrafts don't charge interest for less than £10 overdrawn, and many (mine included) don't charge interest for even greater amounts overdrawn ....

Moving to "what about Tesco?"

I'd object if Sainsbury's.and Tesco's were doing this because the amounts would be much greater (unless those big supermarkets said : "we'll open small local branches that might be marginal in terms of profit to help the local community, offering a range of services: a small selection of retail items, but also banking and postal services, and only use this method of charging in those stores" ........in other words : if they too were providing your local corner shop post office)

The moral of seeing them survive rather than the finance companies I agree, but as a Judge once said to me when I put in a Counterclaim to an action against me which I actually felt uncomfortable doing morally, but had the necessity to do, and I told her so she said - " We are not here to judge the morals Andrew1, we are here to judge the facts" - so I stuck with the facts and on the facts, I won!

Absolutely correct, in court.

Yet, this isn't a court case.

I was just looking for the facts.

 

Should they do this or shouldn't they? If they shouldn't what regulation, if anyone knows off the top of their head, applies?

 

Your input is most appreciated.

See above; why bother?

The service operated by Post Office Counters, (not shop) use the Horizon computerised system. That system is chip and pin and does not accept cotactless cards

The Post Office element where I paid for my Parcel in this local shop did take Contactless for payment for postage. Whether that differs for larger PO outlets I know not, but this is a small shop with a dedicated Post Office area screened off.

I'm pretty sure that PO's banking services are routed via LINK, so a counter cash withdrawal is pretty much the same as an ATM withdrawal. Unless it's changed in recent years, LINK settlement s on the next working day, which is the same as Visa and Mastercard, so your bank account will be debited on the same day regardless of whether they put your payment through correctly or not. The only potential downside (I can think of) for you would be if you ever needed to go down the chargeback route for one of your purchases at this PO branch, as this would not be available to you if they'd processed the transaction as cash.

Should they be doing this? Well, no they shouldn't, but they're not breaking any regulations per se, other than the internal ones they sign up to with the Post Office (your branch will most likely be a franchise).

If you want to report them I'm sure you can find some "contact us" info on the main PO website, but it just sounds like they are a small business doing their best to maximise their revenue (albeit by being a bit sneaky).

Thanks folks, all comments are very much appreciated.

I thank you too BazzaS, all be it I find that whilst you are an enormous help to many on this forum from what I can see and your infinite wisdom of help to far many more in need than I at this present time, but the attitude of 'why bother' is surely one for the individual to take no matter what motive one has and it is probably best not to make judgement on why a poster asks a question or whether it is of importance or not to you?

What one question is to you, may be a threatened repossession to another.

I appreciate your input, you have a broad knowledge, that is obvious, but please don't make light of the question asked until you are 100% sure you know exactly what is behind that question. Be it my question or anyone else's.

You know not the reasons why I raised this other than the basic outline I produced to begin with to keep things simple. How do you know this is not going to be a part of a court case? - You don't.

All I asked was some simple questions of procedures to clarify points.

I have my answers thank you all so, I'll take no more of your time.

Much appreciated

Andrew1

p.s. I actually have a massive court case about to commence as it happens.

Thanks folks, all comments are very much appreciated.

 

I thank you too BazzaS, all be it I find that whilst you are an enormous help to many on this forum from what I can see and your infinite wisdom of help to far many more in need than I at this present time, but the attitude of 'why bother' is surely one for the individual to take no matter what motive one has and it is probably best not to make judgement on why a poster asks a question or whether it is of importance or not to you?

 

What one question is to you, may be a threatened repossession to another.

 

I appreciate your input, you have a broad knowledge, that is obvious, but please don't make light of the question asked until you are 100% sure you know exactly what is behind that question. Be it my question or anyone else's.

 

You know not the reasons why I raised this other than the basic outline I produced to begin with to keep things simple. How do you know this is not going to be a part of a court case? - You don't.

 

All I asked was some simple questions of procedures to clarify points.

 

I have my answers thank you all so, I'll take no more of your time.

 

Much appreciated

 

Andrew1

p.s. I actually have a massive court case about to commence as it happens.

Wow : so many different ways of saying "the question COULD be important", while still not showing that it actually IS.

I'm not saying "it isn't important".

I'm saying "I don't see why it is important", giving my reasons why I believe that and asking you to explain why it is so important to you.

I don't know it is part of a court case, but I don't know that it isn't either : you haven't given enough detail.

You may have a "massive" court case about to commence (massive in terms of sum claimed? In terms of impact? Will it create a binding precedent??). Is it related to your query or completely independent of it??

Thanks for simplifying things.

The only problem is that there (usually) is a rule. Then an exception to the rule. Then the exception to the exception .........

So, if someone doesn't actually post the true scenario (in order to simplify things for us dullards), they may get replies correct for what they have posted, but incorrect for the actual scenario.

That is the risk of oversimplification / 'playing secret squirrel'

So you may feel you have your answer ; yet you'll have an answer for your oversimplified scenario. Whether that remains the answer for the true scenario is questionable.

As for "don't make light of the question asked until you are 100% sure you know exactly what is behind that question" : Since you STILL haven't told us what is behind the question - I'm left unsure why you feel it is important.

It might be important but I don't yet see why.

Hi BazzaS, my apologies if this confuses by trying to keep things simple.

I have learned that the forums are are open to all to view. I have been in court cases (not always my own, but in support of others too) over the years where the opposition have produced copies of posts from here and used them to prove certain issues raised in threads.

I am not being critical at all, people like yourself do a tremendous service to those in need on Cag of bringing reality to their problems - I've had mine have no fear and I hope I have helped people too over the years, not so much lately as I have had to keep counsel with my issues as the opposition know who I am on here and use what I have posted against me. I have some still ongoing that have only been possible to deal with once I came out of the clutches of control by the bank whilst they held their security and used the threat machine and stealth to achieve their aims.

That no longer applies and I am doing things my way and outside of their pathetic and bent playground. BF thought my way a bit pedantic and in general I might have been inclined to agree that things look laboured the way I do it, but I am doing things which are based upon facts and evidence and sometimes those facts boil down to minute detail which if I had to go explaining the whole picture raises even more scepticism or sends people digging for more 'reason' to be explained on here.

You guys, as I know from my own experiences in years gone by, are needed by far more in need than I right now and I just come on sometimes with a question which I am needing to get that clarification on. Just a simple question which doesn't have to be stripped down to all the why's and wherefore's.

Yes, a question can be difficult to answer if one doesn't have the full scenario explained, but that's why I try and keep my questions simple so as not to take more of your time than is necessary, which in this particular case seems to have back-fired and I have taken far too much of your valuable time for which I apologise.

I really do appreciate your help, and as and when my own scenario is complete which may take a while in the way I am tackling it, and I have something tangible for others to benefit from, I will then post up in order that others may too reap a reward and benefit - which is the overall aim of course - to stop others being abused as I was. I have the time now to devote to this journey to uncover the truth of what goes on behind closed doors which I didn't have before, others on Cag invariably don't either.

All will be exposed in due course once done.

Cheers and thank you.

A1