Hi all,

I need some help understanding how to deal with a situation with British Gas ("BG").

Their complaints handling team is playing good cop while their collection people are playing bad cop-- blatantly contradicting one another

-- in a way which I think might violate their own procedure,

as well as perhaps the 2008 regulations on complaints handling and / or the 2013 standards of conduct.

It now seems like they are trying to strong arm me into paying a bill which I am disputing before the 8 week period for dialogue, prior to being able to go to the Ombudsman, has ended.

Here's the background.

In mid-March

I received a power bill so high that I told BG I wanted to dispute it.

(£1,076 for 6 months for a two bedroom flat. Highly implausible).

We spoke by phone;

at the outset I told them I was recording the call (with which the BG lady said was fine).

She agreed -- on the record -- that BG would put the demand for payment on hold while we discussed the issue.

I told her that going forward I would like to discuss the issue only in writing, and that I would start the process by email the next day.

I told her I hoped we could come to some resolution, but that if we did not, I'd want the ncontrovertible paper trail in case we had to go to the Ombudsman. She said that was fine, and I did email the next day.

BG did not reply to the email, but did send me a bill, dated the same day of the call, demanding full payment. That struck me as odd, as it contradicted what she said about putting the bill on hold.

I sent a second email which again went unanswered.

Finally, 3 weeks into the game,

I sent a third one,

to which they did finally reply.

They suggested I give meter readings for 7 consecutive days.

I agreed, although due to travelling I could only start doing so this week.

They wrote they were fine with this, and only two days ago they wrote

"Please be assured,

I've reversed the bill for the moment and I'll re-bill the account, once you provide us with the readings .

.. Please get in touch by 10 May 2017 with the details above, so we can progress this for you.

If however, you don’t need us to help or you’re happy that this is now resolved,

you don’t need to do anything and I’ll make the arrangements to close your complaint on 10 May 2017." Ok, so far, so reasonable, by and large.

Until today,

when a card was slipped through my door reading

"Please contact us urgently.

We visited your home today to discuss what you owe for your electricity supply

[despite saying they were fine keeping it all in writing].

We've added £36 to your account to cover our costs."

Excuse me?

This comes out of nowhere,

and contradicts the complaints department's email,

as well as thier pledge to respect my wish to keep all matters in writing.

It gets worse... they say

"If we don't hear from you"

-- it doesn’t say by when -

- they may apply for a warrant,

enter my flat and install a pay as you go meter,

charging me £56 for the warrant application

and another £150 to carry out the warrant.

Hang on -

- BG seems to be inhabiting two contradictory universes.

On the one hand, we are officially following their procedure, with the bill on hold etc.

while meter readings need to be made, I've the right at the end of 8 weeks , if need be, to go to the Ombudsman;

and on the other, they can dispense with any investigation of the problem,

could care less about the meter readings, deadlines etc.

-- they have simply decided that I owe them the whole amount.

I called the Ombudsman and said they seemed to be trying to pre-empt their own process,

and force an outcome 5.5 weeks in,

without even waiting for the evidence they say they are happy to wait for me to give them.

I said this was in effect their way of declaring a deadlock without actually using those words,

thereby not triggering the right to proceed to the Ombudsman before the 8 weeks are up.

I asked if in this case I could start proceedings with Ombudsman,

and the lady said sorry,

need to wait 8 weeks.

The problem is,

I explained,

they could do a fair bit of damage before those 8 weeks are up.

I am a tenant, the landlord will freak out if a prepayment meter goes in;

and as I am unemployed at the moment,

having to pay £216 for the warrant is a material cost for me;

and they could impact my credit rating as well.

She said sorry, nothing we can do.

I asked, well, if they do this,

and then after 8 weeks I go to the Ombudsman and show that BG has acted wrongly,

can the Ombudsman make me whole?

"I can't address hypotheticals," she said.

I asked, ok, in general, can the Ombudsman issue binding orders,

and deal with infractions of the customer complaints handling regulations or the standards of conduct?

"It's not my job to answer that."

Can you tell me what the Ombudsman does?

"It's not my job to answer that either."

I'm not making this up.

What can I do to stop BG if they continue to be so minded before the 8 weeks are even up?

The Ombudsman lady's responses lead me to believe that even if I have solid documentary evidence of BG's contradictions, prevarications and strong-arming, it might not do me any good. I

can't afford to take BG to court.

Seems like BG can act with complete impunity.

Grateful for any advice!

so £179PCM use

£45PCW.

how does that tally with what you've paid for the house over the time you've been there.?

yes there appears to be some kind of disconnect between what yo are being told on the phone would happen

in regard to what has actually happened re the DCA at your door threatening all manner of stuff.

is this gas only or dual fuel too?

how otfen have you been giving reading

you should be doing this bi weekly of not more often....

could the previous bills all been E estimates

are you giving them regular readings

have you a list of them over the last XX yrs?

You should send an SAR immediately to get as much information as you can about the account.

Get this going now. Don't hang around. It takes 40 days and you will need all of this time.

When you get the disclosure, check it carefully not only to see what is there but also to see what is missing. Pay particular attention to account numbers and make sure that all the account numbers tally along with the readings et cetera.

Send a formal letter to British Gas putting them on notice that you are in dispute and that you want the matter put before the ombudsman. It seems to me that you may not of done this. This means that even though British Gas say that they are looking at the problem, it may not been registered as a formal complaint and so maybe you're eight weeks hasn't even started to run yet before you get your so-called final decision.

These people are given you a warning about a warrant. Believe me, they may simply go ahead and apply for a warrant without any further notice to you and you won't have been warned by anybody. It's a nasty business and it seems to be at the very least applied sloppily across the industry and in my view sometimes abused.

In addition to carrying on your written exchanges with them, I suggest that you make regular phone calls for regular updates – recording the calls all the time. Well done on recording the call. Most people don't and they come to regret it. I suggest that you don't give them any further warnings about recording the call. You're likely to get more interesting results that way. Make sure that all your recordings are stored safely not just on your phone but on a computer and even elsewhere.

Read our customer services guide and implement the advice there.

The ombudsman is not your only route. You also have the small claims process available to you and this is much more effective and the utilities companies will take much more notice of this once they get the court papers.

The ombudsman process is long winded, week and limp-wristed. Don't hold your breath and don't expect miracles. You can't take an ombudsman process and legal process at the same time. They are mutually exclusive. On the other hand, while you're waiting for the SAR and everything you may as well start the ombudsman process because it is the easier and cheaper option to get started. At least you then have a formal position with BT and that's important.

I'm a bit worried that you say you are travelling. Does that mean that you are away from home? If it does then this means that you are not in control of the post which country door. These are the kinds of scenarios we hear about where when you finally get home you find that in fact some kind of notice has been given, the warrant has been applied for the entry has occurred, the new metre has been installed and it's a done deal.

Thank you *very* much for these comments, BankFodder. If you don't mind, please see below, especially what I've denoted as a "***MAJOR NEW QUESTION***"

You should send an SAR immediately to get as much information as you can about the account.

 

Get this going now. Don't hang around. It takes 40 days and you will need all of this time.

Thanks. I actually did this yesterday.

Send a formal letter to British Gas putting them on notice that you are in dispute and that you want the matter put before the ombudsman. It seems to me that you may not of done this. This means that even though British Gas say that they are looking at the problem, it may not been registered as a formal complaint and so maybe you're eight weeks hasn't even started to run yet before you get your so-called final decision.

Need it be a letter or would email suffice? Anyway, I made it clear in the initial recorded phone call that I was hereby beginning their complaints process which, if not settled within 8 weeks, would result in the matter going before the Ombudsman.

These people are given you a warning about a warrant. Believe me, they may simply go ahead and apply for a warrant without any further notice to you and you won't have been warned by anybody. It's a nasty business and it seems to be at the very least applied sloppily across the industry and in my view sometimes abused.

This is sort of the heart of my question. By writing me “Rest assured the bill is put on hold while we continue with the process” while at the same time threatening me with a warrant if they don’t get the full amount – nominally under investigation—they are de facto ignoring their own process. Does this not contravene the 2013 Ofgem standards, e.g.

“Behaviour: suppliers must behave and carry out any actions in a fair, honest, transparent, appropriate and professional manner.” – I think I can make the case that the good cop / bad cop routine fails these tests have been neither fair nor honest

“Process: the supplier must … ensure that customer service arrangements and processes are complete, thorough, fit for purpose and transparent.” – I think I can make the case that if they ignore their own process, it is not fit for purpose, and if they contradict themselves via good cop / bad cop, it is not transparent.

In an ideal world, anyway. I have no idea whether the Ombudsman would agree or care.

Which leads to a ***MAJOR NEW QUESTION***: what about paying the bill to keep them from doing the “done deal” of a gett8ing a warrant, but making it clear that I am doing so under duress – after all, if a pay-as-you go meter gets installed, my landlord will be very upset and give me a bad reference, at it will also impact my credit rating (which is 100% clean) -- but stating that, although paying, I do not consider the matter closed, and so that after paying I will contest the action before the Ombudsman on the grounds that they have not followed their own process / the 2013 standards? If I win, can I be made whole after the fact this way?

I don’t have the time to take them to court, and don’t have the funds to pay their legal costs if they win. Again, in an ideal world I think I’d win, but this is the real world.

In addition to carrying on your written exchanges with them, I suggest that you make regular phone calls for regular updates – recording the calls all the time. Well done on recording the call. Most people don't and they come to regret it. I suggest that you don't give them any further warnings about recording the call. You're likely to get more interesting results that way. Make sure that all your recordings are stored safely not just on your phone but on a computer and even elsewhere.

 

Read our customer services guide and implement the advice there.

I did read that. The reason I don’t call and record is that it simply adds to the hassle – taking time to transcribe the calls, and makes for that much more of an unwieldy package of evidence to assemble for the Ombudsman. Much easier to just have everything in writing.

Side point: My understanding is that one must tell the party that they are being recorded at the outset if the recordings are to be admissible as evidence.

I would put a formal complaint into a formal letter rather than email and send it at least by recorded delivery and if possible special delivery so that the delivery is fully logged.

Don't forget that you are dealing with an extremely reluctant and incompetent dinosaur outfit and you need to take all precautions to protect yourself against these people.

You don't need to transcribe calls. If it really comes to court and the evidence that you have is important then you can transcribe the bits which are relevant to you. You don't need to start committing everything to hardcopy. In terms of warnings – no you don't have to give warnings if you are using your recordings for your own purposes which includes giving evidence in court for using them to defend yourself in some way.

Without warning you would not be allowed to use the recordings on you tube on this forum et cetera. But you can still refer to them..

However, if you had really incriminating stuff then I would be more than happy to reproduce@click here. We've done it before.

What are they going to do – sue us? Bring it on.

I think at the end of the day it all depends on what you prepared to do. From reading your posts so far, I'm afraid that it seems that you are disinclined to take the really serious action that it will need to sort this out. I think that until you change your mind on this I'm not too sure how we can help you

I noticed for the second time in this thread you are referring to the procedures and policies and so forth which apparently are meant to control the way that British Gas and the other utilities companies behave towards you.

I think that you are obsessing about this – I hope you are my me saying so. You misunderstand the function of these rules. You seem to think that these rules exist so that the company recognises its limits and operates within them. Bless.

The companies routinely ignore these as you are finding out. If they did what they were meant to do then they wouldn't be mucking up your account and you wouldn't be here complaining.

The real function of these rules is to provide you with a clear basis for making trouble when they decide to ignore them. The trouble is that you have already hobbled yourself by saying that you don't have time to bring a legal action. If you're not prepared to enforce the rules then nobody else will and you may as well pack up and go home.

I notice also that you say that you wouldn't have the money to pay their legal costs if they win. However you're talking about small claim in the County Court here. It is precisely the small claims rule that each side has to pay their costs win or lose which empowers you and gives you the opportunity to enforce the rules which you seem to be so keen on quoting.

If you're not prepared to make the time to take the action and if you're not prepared to avail yourself of the very good small claims rules that we have in this country, then I'm really not quite sure what else you can do. Don't expect British Telecom to come to the table willingly and don't expect much support from the ombudsman.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

What about paying the bill to keep them from doing the “done deal” of a gett8ing a warrant, but making it clear that I am doing so under duress – after all, if a pay-as-you go meter gets installed, my landlord will be very upset and give me a bad reference, at it will also impact my credit rating (which is 100% clean) -- but stating that, although paying, I do not consider the matter closed, and so that after paying I will contest the action before the Ombudsman on the grounds that they have not followed their own process / the 2013 standards? If I win, can I be made whole after the fact this way?

Sorry, I forgot to address that point.

Clearly if you pay all the money up now then that should stop any further process against you. If you are then able to establish your case then you could proceed against them for the overpayment – but you would have to work hard to assemble all of the information and put a good case together.

Once again, the ombudsman will be mainly unhelpful and it will probably need a court case to be able to get the settlement that you need plus interest plus compensation.

Once again you're going on about the ombudsman being impressed by the fact they're not carrying out their own process. The ombudsman won't only make decisions on this kind basis. That kind of procedural/formal argument is suitable for the courts. The ombudsman will merely tend to make a decision based on what he considers to be a fair outcome – for both parties. This is often extremely unsatisfactory.

Another thing you should know about the ombudsman process is that it is not transparent. You will not find out what arguments or correspondence or other representations have been made by the energy company to the ombudsman and what he has taken into consideration when reaching his final decision.

A court process requires disclosure and transparency and an open and reasoned decision.

Finally, a warning: if they have already embarked on the process of obtaining a warrant then I'm afraid that it is not unknown that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. This means that there is also a risk that you will pay the money – under protest – as you suggest, but the people applying for a warrant won't get to know this or else the warrant application may already have been started and would be granted. Furthermore, the people who then go into your property to execute the warrant will simply do so because they've been instructed by the warrant regardless of other relevant circumstances such as that the debt has now been fully paid off.