Hi there,

I have lived for the last 10 years in a Victorian terrace of 10 houses, which have traditionally long thin gardens which slope down to a paved Housing Association car park.

The gardens of the terrace used to extend much further than they do now but the previous owner of my house, along with another, who owned this land sold it to a HA for development in 1994. The houses were finally built in 1999.

Before and since the sale, the residents of our terrace have parked their cars on the land and after it was developed by the HA, in the paved car parking area.

For myself that means I have been parking in the HA car park area for over 10 years....

Other residents have been doing this for longer.

Some of the residents have incorporated drives on the end of their land. Some have not as the land has a 1:14 incline which means that leveling the land for a drive is an expensive and time consuming process.

Last week all the residents of our terrace received a letter from the HA stating that they were looking into issuing permits for their residents and employing an agency to monitor the car park and those who use it without a permit.

They had tried to establish our terrace's legal right to park on the land but could not and they are now asking for anyone who has evidence that our terrace have a legal right to park on the HA land to come forward by the end of the month.

Questions:

I have the deeds relating to the transfer of ( half of) the land to the HA as the previous owner of my house was one of the two that sold it to them. I know of a right of access but haven't yet immersed myself in the legalese ... what would I be looking for?

Is two weeks a reasonable amount of time to allow before shutting the gates on this enquiry?

Does the fact that the residents of our terrace have been parking unchallenged on the land owned by the HA since 1994 hold any legal implication?

If permits were issued to the HA residents what would happen for our terraces residents or any visitors who need to park?

Please can you help???

Sorry if the phrasing of this thread is clunky but I'm just a Joe Schmo with no legalese.

Well clearly the right of access that you are referring to is the most important thing. I'm not sure what you should be looking for in the documents you have but obviously you had better get a move on.

I would also be looking at the Internet and searching for "adverse possession" which basically gives rights to someone who has been using land belonging to someone else in a particular way for more than 12 years.

Two week certainly seems very short, but I'm not really sure what you can do about it other than discover some basis of an argument – even if you're not totally convinced – and then serve a formal letter on the HA notifying them of your interest in the land.

It's probably a bit late now but maybe something should have been registered with the land registry

As you have been doing it for over 10 years you have created a right to do so called an "easement".

You can register this on the title deeds of the HA land but it will cost you to do so and they aren't going to be happy about it.

You need to tell the HA this and inform them that you will consider any approach by the parking company towards your vehicle as harassment and that THEY are culpable for any action by the parking co.

Should the HA want to overturn this easement you will be happy to challenge them when they take the matter to court but would prefer to just keep the status quo.

now you look up the different types of easement so when they come back to you and say that there isn't one you know what sort it is.

Since it has the same use before the HA bought the land they know that it was probably created at the time of purchase rather than just by the passing of time.

It may be that you have actually created an adverse possession of the land and can apply to the land registry to have it put back on your deeds.

You have to inform the HA of your intent and again they will object but it is grounds for discussing your right to be there and this parking matter (parking permits all round?)

I would also approach your Local Councillor, MP about this as well and make them aware of this issue .

Something else you need to check is the Housing Association actually the Landowner of that area.

i.e my own HA has 3 23 Storey multis with a carpark around each building except the HA only own the land the building is on not the carpark as the LA are the landowner of that but the HA upkeep it on LA behalf.

I presume you hold your property leasehold?

How many of the other 'owners' are Leaseholders?

Is your 'right of access ' for motor vehicles or pedestrians-only?

Is the 'easement' enshrined in the amended Deeds for your/HA Property?

I would ask the other owners to combine with me to jointly seek opinion of a qualified property lawyer asap, which the HA may have already tried, so you may be left with ind property sales T&Cs

Hi there and thank you for your input on this..

Out of the 10 cottages, 1 is HA, I think the developers who bought the land bought it at the same time. (it is the end house in the terrace adjacent to the road that leads down to the HA houses proper.)

The other 9 houses are freehold with 3 being rented out by their owner, a local builder/property owner.

Good point about the land being owned by someone else but how would I find this out?

I think it is the HA's tho'.

The right of access is both pedestrian and motor vehicle.

Most of the peeps who live here are not very well off so asking them to contribute to the cost of a lawyer will, imo, not happen.

Land Registry of course.

Start off by telling the HA you have an easement that allows you to carry on as you were, let them argue the toss.

Read up on the types of easements that exist and then consider whether you want to register it on the deeds of the property affected.

again,

the Land Registry do this

but you will have to fill out a form and pay a fee.

This is not much but don't expect the landowner to be happy that you have suddenly woken up to the fact that you have rights.

It will be an easement by prescription and you will most likely have to go to court over it to get it registered as the landowner will definitely want to fight this.

However

just letting them know that you are likely to embark upon this may get them to negotiate a status quo without enshrining the matter into the deeds of their property.

As for the others not paying,

well,

they can go whistle when you get given a parking permit and they don't

( the easiest way out for both sides as it doesn't acknowledge your claim but gives you what you want.

My understanding is that to have such rights you would need to have been using the land for 12 years before the Land Registration Act 2002 came into force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession

No,

that would be to get what was called "squatters rights" or to put it better adverse possession.

In this case it is easy to show that they have been using the land for access since before the HA acquired it so the HA also acquired the unwritten agreement about its use.

To get this on to the land registry entry will cost money for both parties and the HA needless to say wouldnt like to have it formalised

that is why I suggest that the OP makes them aware that they would consider going down the legal route

unless something is done to keep everyone happy.

It will cost the HA nothing to issue a parking permit and things might change in the future anyway.

if they dont,

they cant let people obstruct the access to the gardens so the area currently used for parking is dead land

and everyone save tens of thousands in legal fees.

telling the you have a big stick

As this goes back to 1994 then there is no chance the HA will get it overturned as a right of access

but as with all things you have to defend your rights.

so start with a letter saying that the access and parking have been continuous since that time and that you are claiming an easement by prescription.

You may also consider the Wheeldon v Burrows determination as that makes the previous use implied

the new owner cannot prevent you from continuing to enjoy it.

In other words,

if people parked on the land before it was sold they can continue to do so afterwards

because that implied agreement or right was transferred to the new owner.

That means you can sue the HA or the parking co for trespass against your vehicle if they try to enforce their new parking regime.

As said,

worth letting them know that you are minded to do this and settle for somehting that suits you

but doesnt give your successors the rights to claim the same- ie an agreement.

Once that is in place for more than a year

then enforcing the easement becomes nigh on impossible

as all easeamnts are created without a specific agreement or time limit.

Thank you very much for all your input, I do appreciate it can be very difficult to visulise a layout in a situation but your advice is much appreciated and well received.

here is a copy of the letter we propose to send to the HA (they have recently been merged with another HA. The original HA never did anything about the state of their properties....hence the new broom effect we think)

RE **** CAR PARK

Dear ***

Thank you for your letter of 10th March. Parking is a perennially contentious issue wherever you go and I was aware of some disquiet amongst some of the residents of *** ***.

I do find this surprising as there never seems to be a shortage of spaces, although it is not something I monitor closely. There are 42 spaces and only 16 properties in *** *** itself.

Your legal team should examine the deeds relating to the transfer of the land to the developer of *** *** back in the 90s. Our property has enjoyed continuous access to and parking on the land of the *** *** car park since before *** *** was built and (more importantly) continuously since. An easement therefore exists which allows us to continue parking, and which could be registered on the deeds of the *** *** land.

However I fear this would only further aggravate the situation. May I suggest that a pragmatic approach would be to issue us with a permit for one vehicle?

Whilst writing could you explain how the proposed permit scheme would relate to visitors of any of the properties in the area?

Could you confirm that the access road itself – from **** and extending past the bottom of all the **** **** gardens to the boundary to the rear of the ***** Road properties - is not included in your proposals.

Finally could you also assure me that (the HA) propose to employ the services of a reputable agent to manage the parking, and publish the guidelines under which they are to work? The fact that they are prepared to issue the permits for free implies that they will seek recompense by alternative means, and parking companies have an extremely poor reputation.

I look forwards to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

Kind regards

Sorry meant to add (can't find edit button) any good??? Needs more??? ???

Seems you are stil perplexed

If it were me, i would keep the letter to the point. You are only registering the fact with them that you have lived and parked at the address since 19xx. Therefore you have established an easement to park.

I would not be suggesting a permit either. Why can't you be alllocated say 2 permanent spaces, which are marked as spaces for no.1 high road. It is up to them to come forward with a solution. They could just mark out 32 spaces ( 2 for each house) and legally document it. Do you really want a permit scheme, where you have problems with parking penalty ticket appeals, because the permit was not visable. Also it would cause problems, if residents have contractors e.g plumbers, parking on the site. If they are going to get parking tickets, they might not be happy.

Your letter is well written and very personable. But these companies don't work like that. The only reason they are wanting this change is to gain a return on the land usage. So the parking company appointed will be slapping tickets on any vehicle they think has breached the rules. They then share the proceeds with the landowner.

amended paragraphs ...

You suggested that a permit scheme might be introduced within the car park area of *** ***, could you explain how such a scheme would relate to visitors of any of the properties in the area?

Could you confirm that the access road itself – from **** and extending past the bottom of all the ***** gardens to the rear boundary with the *** Road properties - is not included in your proposals.

Finally could you also assure me that if (HA) were to employ the services of a reputable agent to manage the parking, that the guidelines under which they are to work would be published to all residents in the immediate area? The fact that they are prepared to issue the permits for free implies that they will seek recompense by alternative means, and parking companies have an extremely poor reputation.

With regards to your last paragraph Uncle B, I really do think this has arisen as the original HA has been merged/taken over by another (which are those now contacting us) with a more efficient team perhaps or they have waded into the complaints of the HS residents and have not yet turned the volume of the hearing aid.

We live in a lil market town (not a great market) in the wilds of Dorset and the area is question is not even particularly near town centre....so not a great lure for people who want to avoid parking fees or restrictions.

I think i have read numerous complaints about parking problems in Dorset. I had relatives who lived near Poole, but not the tourist area. Because, the flats had an elderly population, some were always complaining about something. They don't realise that when they complain about trivial issues, that there are consequences they had not thought about. Next time one of the complainants has a visitor with a parking penalty, they will be complaining about it.

Re the suggested permit scheme, you could ask for full details of the intended scheme to be published to all houses affected, as we will all want to know the practicalities of such a scheme to residents and any visitors that residents received. Insist that any permit scheme must be fully explained and for residents to be able to respond before it is introduced. It might be free to start of with, but what about any new people who move into one of the houses. Presumably there will then be admin fees.

you start off with a position that you have an easement by prescription that entitles you to park on their land and will move to have this entered onto their deeds if necessary.

You are willing to discuss how this fits in with their plans.

Don't put what you are prepared to concede in your first letter or you will get the least acceptable deal thrust upon you.

When you discuss

you can offer a compromise that suits your rights and their administrative convenience

such as a free permit so the parking co don't get confused and ticket your car

and end up with you suing the HA for harassment

(they should be aware of the consequences of the parking co's stupidity or greed)

you need to make it clear in discussion that any action they take will cost them very dear

so they should be nice to you rather than dismissing your request.

I have been reading the land registry practice guide 52 - Easements claimed by prescription.

This says that the use must be for at least 20 years....as we have only been here 10 1/2 years we will struggle to prove that one!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easements-claimed-by-prescription/practice-guide-52-easements-claimed-by-prescription

As suggested by Ericsbrother we will look into other types of easement.

it is not you,

it is the easement created by the people before you

and the people before them is applicable.

- the continuous use.

The same applies to public footpaths,

they become public footpaths because someone used them without being told not to for years

it only get registered when someone applies to or more likely the landowner objects to people using it and tries to stop them.

This is effectively what you are doing,

formalising somehting that went on back in the 1990's

Thank you brother of Eric....and to all of you who are spending their time trying to help us with this thorny issue.

The last post was written by my OH who has done a lot of research.

The land was sold 1993/4 but the was not developed until 1998 (before being opened for use in 1999)

Before then the land were large gardens / fields used as allotments, livestock etc for some of the farm cottages ... including ours.

OH believes that as the plot was a building site 18 years ago, nobody would have been allowed access or parking rights during that period and therefore we can't say that we have had continuous use of the land for 20 years.

I say that the HA would have to prove that we haven't but OH believes the HA has a legal team and would therefore top trump mere mortals such as owner occupiers.

Please can someone on here elucidate as to whether the time to achieve an easement is 10 or 20 years?

The easement relates to your property.

What does your new Lease say about Easements, contain any rel Codicils? Check LR Deeds.

AFAIK 20 years is min period for adverse possession (Squatter's Rights). Don't know about min easement pariods).

squatters rights used to be 12 years.

Easements by prescription can be as short as 8 years but that would be unusual.

Ancient Lights relates to the occupier of a propertyand not the property itself but you can get an easement for ligth anyway.

As always there is case law on this going back a long way.

Continuous use has its own meaning,

it doesnt mean every day,

it can be once a year.

Why are you trying to knock down your own claim before you have put it to the HA.

If you really dont want to continue this then just say so

I look at it like this,

you have absolutely nothing to lose and you are acting in an honest belief that you have acquired and maintained these rights

no accusation of malice can be laid on you even if it is decided that you are in the wrong.

The HA will of course say you are in the wrong because they currently stand to lose a valuable asset.

however,

them telling you that you are wrong is not being wrong itself

be prepared to take the matter further.

Ultimately they will have to prove that such an easement hasnt been created

and that will cost them a good deal of time and money,

they will have to get witnesses to say that you didnt park there umpteen years ago

and that is unlikely as who are they going to trawl up to say that?

it then boils down to negotiation.

Cheapest option for both parties and that is why you should have an end game objective of a parking permit and a formal permission to park.

That will negate the easement

( you cant have an easement where permission has been granted to do something)

but you will get you space as long as you want it.

When you move out the deal disappears and the HA get their land back without a future problem.

Ok, I am really stressed at the moment and need this part of it to be over so this is the letter Im suggesting be sent.

Please could you look it over and let me know if there are any pertinent changes to be made. Legalese to be added etc

Thank you for your letter of 10th March. I find the apparent shortage of parking spaces surprising as there are 42 available spaces and only 16 properties in *** itself and I personally have never seen the car park completely full.

I suggest your legal team should examine the deeds relating to the transfer of the land to the developer of Wilson Park back in the 90s.

The residents of ***** have enjoyed access to and parking on the land of the **** car park since before **** was built and (more importantly) continuously since.

An easement therefore exists which allows us to continue parking, and which we are now thinking of registering on the deeds of the **** land.

I can't see a problem with this. Not sure you need to add anything, apart from ask for full details of any free permit scheme to be supplied to all residents and for them to ask residents to respond, as you are not sure some will be happy that their existing rights are being subject to change.

As i said before, even though these permits might be issued free to start of with, there must be some financial motive to this. It can't just be a few complaints from your neighbours,

Dont invite them to get their legal team to do anything

as they will then respond and say that the advice is to tell you to get lost.

State your case,

leave out that line and the rest makes good sense up until the the last bit,

dont threaten to put it on the deeds or they will be using their financial muscle to batter you into submission

end the letter after the bit about the easement by PRESCRIPTION exists.

Then invite them to discuss how they intned to accomodate this in their plans

(to hire some cowboy to play meter maid on their land)

Ok, I am really stressed at the moment and need this part of it to be over so this is the letter Im suggesting be sent.

Please could you look it over and let me know if there are any pertinent changes to be made. Legalese to be added etc

 

Thank you for your letter of 10th March. I find the apparent shortage of parking spaces surprising as there are 42 available spaces and only 16 properties in *** itself and I personally have never seen the car park completely full.

 

I suggest your legal team should examine the deeds relating to the transfer of the land to the developer of Wilson Park back in the 90s.

 

The residents of ***** have enjoyed access to and parking on the land of the **** car park since before **** was built and (more importantly) continuously since.

An easement therefore exists which allows us to continue parking, and which we are now thinking of registering on the deeds of the **** land.

I put in the bit about the deeds (tho not telling them that we hold at least one set)

as the initial communication asked if we (the residents of the terrace) had any knowledge of a right to park.

OH has ascertained that the HA does indeed own the land (from the land registry website) but I think this was bought from the developer (who originally bought the land 93/94) in '98.

Thank you for your letter of 10th March. I find the apparent shortage of parking spaces surprising as there are 42 available spaces and only 16 properties in *** itself and I personally have never seen the car park completely full.

The residents of ***** have enjoyed access to and parking on the land of the *** car park since before *** was built and (more importantly) continuously since.

An easement by prescription therefore exists which allows us to continue parking in the *** car park. Could you tell us how you intend to accommodate this within your plans?

I hope this helps with your enquiries.

????

Not in the car park but at a specific place in what is now the car park

(probably on the land immediately ajacent to the properties known as YYYYYY).

Otherwise it looks like you are trying to claim more than you are entitled to

Drop the last line and just say yours faithfully.

You arent helping them with their enquiries you are making a statement and then offering discourse on the matter.

every time you try and say something nice it will be used as a sign of weakness

so be civil but formal and dont offer to shoot yourself in the foot before there is even a threat of a gunfight.