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    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
    • just type no need to keep hitting quote... as has already been said, they use their own criteria. if a person is not stated as linked to you on your file then no cant hurt you. not all creditors use every CRA provider, there are only 3 main credit file providers mind, the rest are just 3rd party data sharers. if you already have revolving credit on your file there is no need to apply for anything just 'because' you need to show you can handle money. if you have bank account(s) and a mortgage which you are servicing (paying) then nothing more can improve your score, despite what these 'scam' sites claiml  its all a CON!!  
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Santander Refuse refund


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Hi

 

I have really complicated situation where santander are refusing to return some money.

 

My santander bank account has had money taken out from it by a building company to the tune of £4100 and building suppliers company to the tune of £2800.

 

We reported this to santander

they came back to us saying the transactions are genuine due to them matching the email address used to one used with a different company.

 

the problem is that we never used this email address in the past

we found out the email address used was the one used by one of our tenants in the past

we have a record of a few communications from them using it

 

We have informed the police and obtained the crime ref number.

the Bank are still refusing to return the money again confirming they believe its a genuine transactions.

 

We have contacted the building company and they refuse to return the money saying we have to take matter the to court to get it settled.

 

Due to this incident we are in big financial trouble.

Account completely wiped off and we have been left with no money

I have two little kids age 4 and we have been left without any money to support them.

 

We contacted the bank a number saying we did not use this card

the bank refuse to listen and repeating state the same thing again and has closed the case and the decision has been made on the account.

 

Due to this stress our family are completely broken down.

I have to contact food bank for food.

 

we contacted the bank asking if this was not fraud, as they say the transactions are genu, can we not claim the money back under debit card chargeback scheme as we did not receive any service from these companies, but bank advisor refuse to do that.

 

Can some one please help us out about this matter

or freelance solicitor to look into this matter we need serious help.

.. Please

Edited by Andyorch
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Hi

 

My santander bank account money has been taken out by building company £4100 and building supplier company £2800. We reported to santander and they came back to us saying transactions is genuine due to email address used match with we used with different company. Now, problem is that we never used this email address in past but we found out that email address used by one of our tenant in past as we have record of few communications.

 

 

Your story is not entirely clear. Especially in the paragraph above, I'm not really certain why the email address should have been significant in withdrawing money from the bank.

 

Could you please explain it rather more carefully. Maybe somebody else knows, but I don't. What is this system that you are using.

 

Have you got this in writing from the bank or is this simply on the telephone? In case you are doing things on telephone, read our customer services guide and implement the advice there before you have any more telephone contact with anyone.

 

Also, you don't say how long ago this happened. Are you saying that the builder and the building supplier, have actually provided building services and building supplies respectively? Has the email address ever been yours? How long ago was the tenant in your property?

 

As you can see, there are lots of questions to be asked here and it will save us a lot of time if you can simply provide us a full detailed story of a thing that has happened so that we can understand it at one go. Then hopefully we can start to give you some advice.

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Hi,

 

email address in question was used by the tenant when living in the property they moved out in second week of February.

 

Before leaving the property the tenant did try to do some painting to make sure they get their deposit back.

 

they instructed a building company to do the work and they asked travis perkins to deliver some of the goods and paints required for the work.

 

After contacting the building company we found out they used my wifes debit card to pay them in advance for work that was going to be carried out in the property.

 

When I phoned Santander to submit the fraud complaint, they found out about email address in question and they said because we own the property and we knew the people they can not return the money.

 

We did not authorise any work and we did not have any idea about this company.

 

we contacted the building company and asked for a refund of the money, at first they verbally said yes but then the company director refused to refund the money.

 

the situation is

we own the property

the tenant was living in the property

they wanted to tidy the property up before leaving

they instructed the builders but before the work was carried out they left the property

however the money was still taken out from my wifes account.

 

We have contacted santander about the fraud

the fraud investigation team refused our claim based on email address used and us owning the property. We have been told my wifes account will be closed.

 

When the Santander fraud team refuse our claim we asked them to submit debit card charge back but they refused that as well.

Edited by Andyorch
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Thank you, but I still don't understand what the email address has got to do with it in respect of the bank. Why is the bank using that as a basis for saying that it has nothing to do with them.

 

Secondly, we now discover that they used your wife's card. You haven't explained how your tenant came to be in possession of the card or how the payment was made without a pin number?

 

Can you imagine that you are explaining the story to a friend of yours and you wanted your friend to understand everything about it. The story you are giving us is still not complete and is still leaving more questions. It gets very difficult when you are dealing on an online forum like this if you don't give a full explanation.

 

Also, have the materials been delivered? Has the work being carried out?

 

Also, where is the tenant now? What has happened to the tenant's deposit?

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We did not return the tenants deposit

however the amount of the deposit is way lower than the amount of the fraud.

We are not sure where they have moved too, but its somewhere outside london.

 

My wife has told me that when the tenant told her they had broken the bed she ordered and paid for a new one using her debit card with a local bed deliver company and that at the time when giving card details the tenants were near by and may be capture card details.

 

the Work was not carried out, as there is damage everywhere in property , the ceiling has been ripped off and a wall has a hole.

 

After the bank investigation. the bank has asked us do we know anything about the email address used

we told them it was our tenants email address.

 

 

they have said that because when the fraud happened the same email address was used that they cannot refund our money

 

the work on the property did not start or maybe it started and was left halfway finished as we cant tell as the state of the property is bad and we cant confirm anything, its in a real mess.

 

 

for the building Goods that were delivered by travis perkins

we called them and they came and collected everything.

 

when the tenant contacted both companies they used a different name, one we have never heard of and we have no idea who that person is

 

 

they used a false name to the book job and order materials

they made a clearly carried out the fraud on us and now have done a runner

Edited by Andyorch
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You still haven't explained why the email address was important to the bank. How was the email address in some way used to make the payment? Was the payment made online or was it made in a face-to-face dealing with the builder and also with the building supplier? You haven't answered whether the building materials were supplied?

 

I understand that the builder has been paid £4100 and has not done any work for it. Is this correct? On what basis are they withholding the money? What have the police said about it?

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Bank says the email address is important due to the reason that we know about this email address and may be we had access to that email address which is not correct.

 

the Goods that were delivered by travis perkins we have returned and they did not refund money the either.

 

the Builder is not responding to us, as they are now asking us to contact their solicitor.

 

First company director says he will speak with bank and return money

then next day he sent us a text message saying he will not refund money and passed our details to their solicitor to deal with.

 

When asking for his solicitors details he refused to give them

says our solicitor has to contact his solicitor regarding this matter.

 

We been a number of times to the police station

but are always given one answer - report to 101

 

action fraud we did try and they have crime ref number as well but not going any where.

 

bank refused the claims as we have sent correspondance in the past to the tenants email address in question and this was the same email address used for booking jobs with builders and travis perkins.

Edited by Andyorch
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You're still not answering some questions. I'm sorry to say that if you don't deal with all the questions I'm asking you then I won't be able to offer you any help. It's already quite complicated enough.

 

You haven't told us whether the items or the service was paid for online. We also haven't explained what the email address has got to do with the payment of the items in the service and the bank's authorisation of the payment.

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ok let me explain

 

1) Tenant has one email address (eg. tenant atgmail.com) ok this email address they given to us for correspondence or send any information.

 

2) Same email address([email protected]) used to book builders and with travis perkins for materials.

 

3) Now bank did their investigation they have asked us do you know this email address and we have confirmed its our tenant email address.so, bank says may be we have access to this email address as we own property which is not correct.

 

4) Tenant email card details to builder email address and ask them to take manual payment from card. So, neither they did over on phone or not online just by sending email to builder.

 

5) with travis perkins where good ordered they order over on phone with different name as well but same email address.

Edited by Andyorch
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So here's the story:

 

You had a tenant who left your property in February.

The property was in a mess and needed repairs before the tenant's deposit could be returned.

Unknown to you the tenant went ahead to commission building works and also to purchase building supplies.

In order to make these purchases of the building materials, the tenant ordered them over the phone under a false name – but not your name – and used your credit card details.

In order to commission the building work, the tenant sent your credit card details by email to the builder – using his email address which is not the same name as your own.

The building materials were supplied – and then returned by you. The supplier refuses to return your money.

the building work was not carried out and in fact no work has been done. The builder refuses to return your money.

You have alleged fraud and the bank has carried out an investigation and has denied liability on the basis that because you recognise email address, you recognise the identity of the fraudster – which you do.

 

Do you think this is the complete story? Have you got anything else to add to this?

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I hope you won't mind me saying that we've been back and forward for three hours till eventually we have got the story from you which amounts to just a few lines. It doesn't need to be such hard work.

 

Also, I asked you very early on whether you'd been doing this on the telephone or whether it had been in writing. You haven't answered that question yet either. Please do.

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Also, please will you tell us more about the returning of the supplies. Did you do this by prior agreement? Did you deliver them? Is there anything missing? Also, I'm interested to know how they arrived at your property. Who receives them? Was your tenant there to receive them?

 

Do the suppliers agree that they have received the materials back and what reason have they given for refusing to refund you?

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Hi,

 

we had the travis perkins bags still at the home and their materials invoice

we contacted the local travis perkins where goods had been ordered from

 

all items have were returned and none of it had been used.

The Travis perkins local branch manager came with a truck and took all the items back.

 

The Travis perkins manager said he reported matter to his head office requesting to return the money

They told him its upto the branch to return the money they cannot refund the money from head office.

 

The building company refused to deal with us on any matter.

 

We are dealing with santander over on the phone

we have direct number for the fraud investigator based in milton keynes.

 

we have been told by the fraud investigator a final decision has been made and they are not in position to return the money unless the supplier does.

 

Santander have now told us to go to the local branch and to register a complain but are not giving any further answers

 

Santander refused to contact the police and said if the police contact them, then they will provide more information.

 

Apologies, i'm not being difficult just due to this situation, but my wife has been through loads of stress.

i am looking after two kids

 

please, I apologies if my replies seem short of info sometimes.

 

I really appreciate your time and help on this matter.

 

And apologies if i have not replied properly.

Edited by Andyorch
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I'm starting to form a view that it might be easier to go against the building company and the building suppliers for your money because they have the money and they haven't provided what they were meant to.

 

However, you still haven't answered the question as to whether you have been dealing with all of this on the telephone or you have put any of it in writing.

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Hi

 

With the building company

we sent them a few emails as they asked us to do but they did not respond to them.

I have the directors mobile no and he says we are harassing him as asking for money.

 

Travis Perkins, we are dealing with them on the phone [with the local branch ]

 

Can you give me any advise about debit card chargeback as we been told we can do that even fraud claim is declined?

 

Thanks

Edited by Andyorch
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Okay, as you say it is very complicated.

 

Frankly I can't understand why the builders and the building supplies won't refund your money – unless they consider that they are being caught up in some fraudulent enterprise. However, if that's what they feel then they really should be going to the police and there is no evidence that they have done that.

 

Going to Action Fraud is useless. They should be called Inaction Fraud. Most of the matters reported there are never dealt with. It seems to me that it's more about gathering statistics than anything else.

 

Don't expect a lot of sympathy from your bank. All of the structures are designed to frustrate you and to make sure that they never have to pay out money or do anything more for their customers then they possibly can.

 

You haven't helped yourself by not putting things in writing. From now on you must put everything in writing. This is extremely important. I hope you won't mind me saying that your English and your style of expression is disorganised to say the least and so I suggest that you put up proposed letters here and we will check them and suggest any improvements.

 

You probably won't know that under section 22 of the theft act 1968, there is an offence of handling stolen goods. I won't go into technicalities but this includes goods and also money. Furthermore, the money does not have to be obtained by theft. It can also be obtained by fraud. If the builder and Travis Perkins are aware that the money that they are holding has been obtained by fraud then they may be committing a section 22 offence by handling or assisting in the retention of stolen goods (including money).

 

I think that you to send out a number of letters so that you put pressure on everyone.

 

Is the card account which was used to pay for these things a bank debit card or a credit card?

 

You should write a letter to the builders: –

 

Dear Sir/Mdm

 

Formal notice of fraudulent use of my money – your invoice XXX

 

I'm writing to put you on formal notice that your invoice number XXX for £XXX was paid fraudulently by XXX tenants name XXX who used my credit card and without my authority.

 

I have contacted you several times about this and have had no response. You should be fully aware that the name of the person making the fraudulent order was not the person named as the cardholder and so it would have been very easy for you to exercise a level of diligence to ascertain whether or not this was a fraudulent transaction. It seems that you did not exercise any care or diligence in the taking of the payment.

 

Although you now have the money in your possession, you have not carried out any building works you have already been informed that no building works are required.

 

You should be aware that retaining or assisting in the retention of stolen or fraudulently obtained goods or money is an offence under section 22 of the theft act 1968.

 

I'm writing to you to ask you to return my money to me, either directly to me or else to repay it back to the Santander card account which was used to pay you. In case you have any concerns about the legitimacy of this, then paying it directly back to the bank account should reassure you. As you have not provided any services and as you will not be asked to provide any services in the future, there can be no reason for you to carry on retaining the money and also they can be no reason for you not to communicate with me.

 

There has already been a police crime report made in respect of the original fraudulent transaction by XXX tenants name XXX and if you wish to query this, the crime reference number is XXX.

 

If I do not have a satisfactory response from you within seven days then I'm sorry to tell you that I shall be informing the police that I believe that you are committing an offence under section 22 of the theft act 1968 and I shall be asking them to begin an investigation into you.

 

I'm sending a copy of this letter to my bank.

 

Yours faithfully

You should write a similar letter to Travis Perkins

 

Dear Sir/Mdm

 

 

Formal notice of fraudulent use of my money – your invoice XXX

 

I am writing to put you on formal notice that your invoice number XXX for £XXX was paid fraudulently by XXX tenants name XXX who used my credit card and without my authority.

 

As you know, the goods which you supplied were returned to you and in fact they were collected in your own vehicle by a branch manager. The goods were complete and undamaged.

 

Since then, you have refused to return the money. I have received no explanation as to why this might be.

 

I'm writing to you to ask you formerly to return the money either directly to me or to my bank account by making a refund through the same credit card that was used to pay the money. If you have some misgiving that you are being defrauded, then payment directly to the same card should reassure you. In any event, as you are fully aware, you now have full possession of the goods that you supplied and also my money.

 

You should be aware that retaining or assisting in the retention of stolen or fraudulently obtained goods or money is an offence under section 22 of the theft act 1968.

 

There has already been a police crime report made in respect of the original fraudulent transaction by XXX tenants name XXX and if you wish to query this, the crime reference number is XXX.

 

If I do not have a satisfactory response from you within seven days then I'm sorry to tell you that I shall be informing the police that I believe that you are committing an offence under section 22 of the theft act 1968 and I shall be asking them to begin an investigation into you..

 

I'm sending a copy of this letter to my bank.

 

Yours faithfully

I can't guarantee that this will immediately solve any problems, but the important thing is that it will start to stir up worry and it will start to bring pressure to bear on them and hopefully it will start to produce some written answers – which is what you want because of the moment you know nothing.

 

I think getting a chargeback from your bank will be extremely complicated and certainly don't expect them to be cooperative.

 

However, you could write letters to your bank. I think you should write to letters, one for each chargeback because they are less likely to confuse the situation than if you contain both of them in a single letter.

 

Dear Sir or Mdm

 

Account number XXX – chargeback request

 

I'm writing to ask you to begin the chargeback process in respect of a transaction dated XXX for £XXX made to XXX company XXX.

 

This company is a building supplies company. The transaction was made fraudulently by 1/3 party. Although the company has now recovered all of their goods, they are refusing to refund my money.

 

The police have been contracted about the initial third-party fraud and a crime number – reference XXX has been issued.

 

Please will you processes chargeback in order to recover the money from the company. If there are any problems or any questions then please let me know so that I can deal with them.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Write a similar letter for the builders: –

 

 

Dear Sir or Mdm

 

Account number XXX – chargeback request

 

I'm writing to ask you to begin the chargeback process in respect of a transaction dated XXX for £XXX made to XXX company XXX.

 

This company is a building and construction company company. The transaction was made fraudulently by 1/3 party. Fortunately, the attempted fraud was discovered before the company commenced any work. However, although they have been notified, the company is refusing to refund me my money and more recently they have ceased all communications.

 

The police have been contracted about the initial third-party fraud and a crime number – reference XXX has been issued.

 

Please will you processes chargeback in order to recover the money from the company. If there are any problems or any questions then please let me know so that I can deal with them.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

Please have a look carefully these letters and see if you think that this represents the truth and if you are happy to sign them off and send them. Don't forget that you are dealing with your wife's account so your wife will have to sign them because they must be sent in her name.

 

Finally, in seven days time if you do not have your money then you will have to make a complaint to the police.

 

I suggest that this might be best done in writing rather than going through Action Fraud and in order to force the police to take notice, it might be an idea to involve your member of Parliament. Who is your member of Parliament?

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Hi

 

Thank you so much for the quick response.

I really appreciate your help.

I will type this letter and send to every one in connection.

My Mp is berry gardiner.

 

Can you please give me idea why santander refusing for chargeback after declining the fraud.

Is it under the same investigation or different.

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Have you asked Santander for a chargeback? I thought that you had simply made an allegation of fraud.

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how did the tenant get a hold of your debit card number?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I believe my wife visited the property a few months back as there was damage to the bed and we ordered new one.

 

 

When the Company we ordered the bed from delivered it,

they said they had failed to take payment from the card,

and could we sort it with their office.

My wifes rang them and paid for the bed from her card

 

 

i believe they [the tenants] listened to her giving her card details out and took then down.

 

 

we were frequent visitors to the property

due to them having a have few issues

and the next door neighbours.

Edited by Andyorch
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had you in the past used either the builder or the supplier?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Hi

 

Yes after they decline fraud allegation i have asked them to submit chargeback and lady says there is no such thing with debit card its only with credit card and they cant refund money under chargeback

 

Either there has been a misunderstanding or you have been misled. Chargeback is designed precisely for debit card transactions.

 

However, following from the questions asked by site team member DX, is that right that you've had some previous transactions with these companies and there may be a question of bills which have not been paid?

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No we have not used any of the companies in the past.

 

The only problem we are facing is it was same email address that we corresponded to before.

 

 

they used their own email address and we recognized that email address

 

 

the bank are saying we may have had access to that email address or its our email address, which is not correct at all.

 

At the first contact, the fraud investigator said she will return the money

 

 

then she called us back and said she is not going to return the money.

 

 

this was due to the email address we had used to correspond with the tenant in the past and that as we own the property we must thus be aware of company used , which is not true.

 

After the fraud claim was declined we asked santander to use visa chargeback

they refuse saying its only for credit cards.

 

 

I have spoken with visa directly and they confirmed that Santander are voluntarily signed up to the visa debit chargeback scheme

 

We did everything from our side that we could.

 

 

we visited the police and asked them to report the fraud

 

 

they refused saying that when the card is still in the possession of the card holder, they dont take claims over the over the counter- we have to go through action fraud.

 

 

We have it reported to action fraud but nothing happen - no phone call

 

 

just a letter from them confirming we are victim of card fraud.

 

i have two babies

its really hard for us to manage as its completely wiped off our accounts and left us with no money at all.

 

We provided all the evidence to Santander but they refused to deal with the matter simply saying only one sentence repeating their already made decision and they cant change that and the account will be closed. If you want to complain you have to go to your branch.

they are so rude they dont even care to listen and repeated the same each time like speaking with a robot.

 

We been to the police station a number of times and explained our situation

 

 

the lady on the police station desk said to us she cant do anything if your child is without food its your responsibility to find food for her.

 

 

When i said what do you want me to do crime and she said that's up to me if that's how i feel so imagine i have no hope from anyone.

 

this has been going on for the last two weeks and we did not have one single bit of support from anyone until you guys start helping us today.

Edited by Andyorch
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