I bought a 36Ft yacht for £37,500 from a supposedly respectable Hamble broker only to discover later that the entire paper history was for a different boat altogether.

When I went back to the broker he suggested grinding out the HIN,(hull identification number, the boat version of a car VIN), patching up the area and keeping my mouth shut and selling the boat on.

This broker went on to make a forgered copy of the survey I had commissioned, removing the HIN from the front cover, and in a,(recorded by myself), phone call repeated his insistance that I get rid of anything showing the HIN on the boat and just quote the HIN on the paperwork, telling me adfitionally that HIN's were or are not an indication of a boats identity.

I am quite sure he is wrong, especially where the VAT status is concerned and I'd be grateful for any advice.

I bought a 36Ft yacht for £37,500 from a supposedly respectable Hamble broker only to discover later that the entire paper history was for a different boat altogether.

When I went back to the broker he suggested grinding out the HIN,(hull identification number, the boat version of a car VIN), patching up the area and keeping my mouth shut and selling the boat on.

This broker went on to make a forgered copy of the survey I had commissioned, removing the HIN from the front cover, and in a,(recorded by myself), phone call repeated his insistance that I get rid of anything showing the HIN on the boat and just quote the HIN on the paperwork, telling me adfitionally that HIN's were or are not an indication of a boats identity.

I am quite sure he is wrong, especially where the VAT status is concerned and I'd be grateful for any advice.

Suggest you go to the Police. Surely a case of fraud.

Maybe he's a former car dealer who has gone up the ladder...

Hi and Welcome to CAG

I normally place new threads in the appropriate forums...but unfortunately we dont appear to have a Yacht Forum...so your thread is now in General Consumer Issues. Please continue to post here.

Regards

Andy

Hi

Is the Broker a member of either of these links (read their Code of Practice):

http://www.abya.co.uk/information/code-of-practice.aspx

http://britishmarine.co.uk/Membership/Our-Associations/Group/British-Marine-Boat-Retailers-and-Brokers

The broker is in fact a senior member of the committee of ABYA. They have been less than helpful, ignoring all contact with me until today when they asked me along to their offices next Tuesday so that they could "clear things up".

The facts are irrefutable.

The paperwork/history/everthing is for a boat with a HIN ending C090. The actual yacht has a HIN ending in A191. The only mention of HIN ending A191 is on the survey commissioned by myself and later altered/forged by the broker and I have a voice recording of him telling me he had done it and to keep my mouth shut and getrid of all traces of the original survey. (Recordings, yacht papers readily available)

Maybe he's a former car dealer who has gone up the ladder...

I mentioned him being the maritime version of Arthur Daley.

We dont require names to advise on problems..please refrain from putting this Forum at risk.

Regards

Andyorch

Suggest you go to the Police. Surely a case of fraud.

I contacted police. Hampshire have a dedicated marine unit but for some strange reason its being looked at by a uniform PC.

Odd!

We dont require names to advise on problems..please refrain from putting this Forum at risk.

 

Regards

 

Andyorch

OK. Thanks.

He's a senior member of ABYA committee, so go and tell them that you want all your money back in 24 hours or the press will be informed.

Not as blackmail, you need to calmly say that it is your intention to go to the press and also sue the broker and they will surely offer you a full refund.

That's when you give them 24 hours.

Take the money and then still go to the press.

These are bandits!

Hi

I would actually follow their complaint procedure and request a copy of their "Complaint Protocal" .

Look here at the very bottom of the webpage: http://www.abya.co.uk/information/code-of-practice.aspx

Also look through there code of conduct and list every breach by this member and how it's been breached.

As this is a Senior Committee Member involved they hopefully wont try to investigate this themselves but get someone external involved

Also let Trading Standards know about this

Was this individual selling the item acting as a Broker under a different (broker) name or actually representing themselves as ABYA?

He was acting as a broker and is an employee of a large brokerage firm. ABYA is prominent in all their paperwork, on their website etc.

I also discovered just today that he approached the surveyor who I hired and asked for a copy of the survey but with the HIN deleted, giving as his reason for asking that the HIN was in doubt(! It never was in doubt, it is original and matches the "secret" HIN)

I nevér gave him permission to contact the surveyor, nor did he ask for permission.

As I was the client and paid £450 for the survey, shouldnt I have a say in who gets copies?

Yes. The surveyor should not deal with a request for anyone else apart from you.

This sounds all very illegal behaviour and if it were me, i would be speaking to the Police.

He's a senior member of ABYA committee, so go and tell them that you want all your money back in 24 hours or the press will be informed.

Not as blackmail, you need to calmly say that it is your intention to go to the press and also sue the broker and they will surely offer you a full refund.

That's when you give them 24 hours.

Take the money and then still go to the press.

These are bandits!

Thanks! If only!

They wont even tell me who their insurers are. Theres a closing of ranks but at least I have hard evidence such as recordings and forged documents, they or this chap in particular can only make denials.

Yes. The surveyor should not deal with a request for anyone else apart from you.

 

This sounds all very illegal behaviour and if it were me, i would be speaking to the Police.

I did feel miffed at this, after all, if I hire someone and give him £450 then surely I have a say. I am gathering as much advice as I can and this is all very helpful.

Thanks! If only!

They wont even tell me who their insurers are. Theres a closing of ranks but at least I have hard evidence such as recordings and forged documents, they or this chap in particular can only make denials.

If you can manage to speak to someone in charge I bet they'll sort it out.

Surely they don't want any bad publicity.

Anyhow, is the dodgy broker ignoring you?

If he is, send him copies of all your evidence including recordings and tell him that he need to refund you in full.

Unless he's a hardcore criminal, he would mind a bit to be arrested and charged.

I did feel miffed at this, after all, if I hire someone and give him £450 then surely I have a say. I am gathering as much advice as I can and this is all very helpful.

Ask yourself the question as to why someone running a totally legitmate business is doing this. Are they selling stolen goods and covering/changing identifying markers ?

I can say this.

There was a yacht with a HIN ending in C090, (for HIN read the car equivalent, VIN), which had run aground and was significantly damaged however it had documents verifying that import, VAT and other duties were paid.

It also had more than the minimum 5 years continuous history papers, necessary if the yacht is to be mortgaged or used as collateral for large loans etc.

The actual physical yacht has a HIN ending in A191. There is no paper record of this yacht available other than on the survey I had done.

Im not allowed to make assumptions of course but it has an odour about it!

Further, HIN ending C090 was imported into this country in June 1990 from USA.

HIN ending in A191 didnt roll off the production line in California until January 1991 and there 60 boats built in the intervening 11 months or so.

as it was a broker who is casing you trouble have you got any information about the actual owners of the 2 vessels? I am presuming that the same person doesnt own 2 identical boats so what is the previous history of ownership? I accept that it will take a lot of resources to get to the bottom of this but if you can find a previous owner who isnt in line to earn a dishonest quid from this transaction you may well have access to information and images that confirm the identity of the vessel to bolster your complaint to the authorities.

Ive traced both boats back to the day they rolled off the production line, 10 months apart.

The previous ownets refuse to answer any of the five attempts ive made to contact them,( a married couple), and the broker refuses to pass on messages.

Further, today i found that the broker contacted the surveyor hired by and paid £450 for a survey by myself, and asked him for a doctored copy of the survey. I also found out that the surveyor sent him a copy! I think that as i was the surveyors client that he should act only on my instructions but im unsure.

There was no contract as such, just a statement saying "I am (surveyor name) and i have been instructed to survey (yacht name)by (my name).

Has the surveyor broken rules too?

yes, the surveyor acts for his client (you) not any other party. They should only report what they find as well, that is part of their professional duty. If the surveyor has doctored a report and sent it to the broker you can report them to thie regulatory body and sue them for your losses.

By the lack of response from any of the previous owners it looks as though a game of pass the parcel has been played. I would be considering getting al of your information together and looking at it very critically as far as proof goes and then consider suing the broker for the return of your money.

As the asmount is considerable this will not be a small claims matter so expect to spend close to £10k on legal fees. they will be in the same position so just having insurmountable evidenec of thier chcanery may well be enough to make them agree to sort things out BUT they may defedn by saying that you refused to use the arbitration of their trade body ( I can see why you wouldnt) And try and get the claim thrown out on that grounds alone.

Thanks. Their trade body has the broker himself as a senior member and committee member!

Ive had a letter from their solicitors and sent back a chapter and verse reply of nothing but solid facts. He didnt like that. He responded to me within hours without any "Dear Mr H" or "Yours etc" and it doesnt seem kosher for a solicitor to send angry emails rather than spend days formulating a letter. He certainly didnt have time to check the factual info I sent him, it took me 5 weeks to get it from 4 different agencies, MCgA, HMRC, Catalina Yachts USA etc so I think his cage is rattling.

Have you asked for a refund?

If not send him and his solicitor a letter giving 14 days to collect the dodgy boat and give you a refund or you'll get the police involved.

I would also copy the committee in so they can give him some pressure to resolve.

If he doesn't refund go to the police.

To me this is the same as changing vin number on a car, fraud? stolen goods? Deception? False advertising? Tampering with official documents?

One thing is sure, he sold you a boat with false documents.

No doubt about that.

My point exactly! Once registered a boat is given a "carving" or number plate.

The number plate for the paperwork boat is now on the physical, actual boat.