Hi All

hope you're all well?

I still haven't worked up the courage to sort out my CC's, but I have an interesting tale to tell.

Bare with me I may go on a bit.

About 10 days ago I went into a strange bank to pay one of my cards, I paid the min on B Card.

A couple of days later I had a Phone call from said bank (Lloyds) inquiring if I had adequate service on my visit, I said it was fine. He said he noticed I was paying interest on the card, also that I used to have a Lloyds CC that I closed some years ago, he said I qualified for a new card and 1 year of 0% and asked if I would like one and to transfer the balance, I said sounds like a good idea, he said he would be in touch but to continue paying until then.

A couple of days later I got in the post a pin mumber.

A couple of days later I got the card with £3500 limit.

A couple of days later I got the agreement to sign.

Followed next day by a letter telling me they had transferred the balance.

I don't quite know what to make of it.

Any comments anyone.

Watch this space.

Cheers

Hi all

Hope you all had a good xmas.

I dont seem to have had any comments to my last post?

Have I done something wrong?

Is it in the wrong place ? or what?

I have an update , I've now recieved the first statement on this account, I dont know what to do - ignore it, pay it, or just tell them I dont want it and get it transferred somewhere else?

Anyone out there or have I screwed up and been sent to coventry or something?

I've now recieved the first statement on this account,

Did you actually agree to the balance transfer and sign the agreement?

Hi all

All the best etc, etc.

So did you sign???

Hi everyone

good to hear from you Rory, it was getting a bit lonely out here.

Yes I mean the new Lloyds credit card.

I certainly didn't say "please transfer the balance" I did say that sounds like a good idea, or words to that effect, fully expecting that before I needed to actually make the decision I would have had more paper work plus an agreement to sign.

So no I have signed nothing.

The pay by date is the 12th so I have a few days left to decide what to do, scarry or what.

Cheers

PS: Happy new year to all

The pay by date of the 12th has come and gone. Had a phone call from collections last night. I told them I dont have an aggreement for the card so I dont recognise the debt. They said I need to talk to customer service. This went round and round for a while then we parted company. I'll just sit tight now and let them make the next move, i spose?

If they phone again just inform them that you will not speak to them over the phone and that all communication must be in writing only. Then put the phone down.

Hi Rory - how you doin?

Update on my stuff.

Lloyds - I've sent request for agreement on 27th Jan

Halifax - sent them a letter asking them to freeze account for 1 month - no reply yet

Egg - same letter - phone calls from them, they say will keep charging until a payment plan is in place - I told them I'm preparing a budget, and then I'm supposed to phone them.

CSA - they want £190 a month to settle debt in 2 years - after some negotiation they say they will settle for £32 a month, if not they will do whatever they have to, to get the money.

I'll keep you posted

Cheers

Hi all

Now I really need help.

Lloyds have answered within the time limit. They say that they dont need to provide a copy of the signed agreement, and that they have complied by supplying a copy of the agreement. They say it is enforceable and that they will. They also say that they would not have opened a credit card account without a signed agreement - that is exactly what they did. And then they say we will not be entering into any further correspondence with me regarding the provision of copy agreements.

I need to know exactly what to do next please someone

Cheers

What have Lloyds actually stated?

Hi rory good to hear from you

Ok Lloyds say:

I have enclosed with this letter a copy of your executed agreement, a copy of your current terms and conditions and a signed statement of your account. By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 78. There is no requirement under the CCA to provide you with a copy of the original signed agreement but please be assured we would not have opened a credit card account without a signed agreement. For the avoidance of any doubt we have set out in the appendix to this letter your rights under section 78.

Having satisfied our obligation under section 78, the egreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the provision of copy agreements.

There is more but that's the meat of it.

I thought that I might try to use CPR 31(16)? as suggested by the site team(pt2537). I know 100% that they cannot come up with a copy as I have never signed one.

Cheers

Update

Lloyds - since last post I have sent them request using CPR 31(16)

Halifax - they replied to CCA request saying I hadn't filled in the postal order - which I have now done and sent back to them

Egg - they replied to CCA request saying they couldn't process it as I hadn't signed it and they took my security very seriously. Despite having sent me a letter to respond to without any kind of signature - I have signed it digitally and sent it back to them.

Does all this toing and froing reset the time limit clock?

Cheers

Update

Halifax and Egg are very quiet - 4 days left for CCA requests.

Lloyds - time has run out for CCA request - so now I think I need to send them another letter telling them that they are now in default until they comply - sending tonight.

They also have until 9th March to respond to my request using CPR.

I hope I'm doing the right things?

All comments/suggestions welcome.

Cheers

Hi all

Seems ages since i last posted on this thread, so i think some uodates are in order.

Egg - they terminated me an passed me to DLC - i sent them a bemused letter, they passed me back to egg who are now going through thier complaint procedure.

Halifax - i now have a seperate thread for them on the halifax forum (Halifax - getting serious now) quit interesting as they refuse to send me a copy of signed agreement. Passed me to Power 2 Contact, had lots of phone calls and callers, have now complained to trading standards and ombudsman - now gone quiet for a week or 2.

Lloyds - now the interesting one, and the one i really need some knowledgeable help on please.

They sent me the usual "have complied " stuff. Then ignored my request under CPR, and also 2nd request under CPR. All they have done for the last 3 months is phone and ask me to pay once a month and then take the payment from my current account making me further overdrawn. I have just left it pretty much making sure that they have enough rope.

I need to mention that i know for a 100% certainty that they do not have a signed agreement, and so do they know this.

Now i've receive what looks like an interesting letter, trouble is i dont understand a word of it, hence the help please.

I can't post it so i've copied it:

Dear………..

You have missed payments and your account is in arrears. In order to give you a fresh start, we want to bring your account up to date and clear all of the payments that we have asked you to pay in the past which you have not paid (your arrears).

In order to clear the arrears, we need to make a change to condition 18.5 of your agreement. It will read “We may choose not to enforce our contractual rights against you and make this contractually binding against us by giving you a notice which expressly states that we have chosen to do so under this term of the agreement. In all other cases, if we choose not to exercise rights against you, we can still do so later”.

This letter gives you notice for the purposes of this new condition 18.5 the arrears standing on your account at the date of this letter have now been cleared. You will still owe us these amounts, which form part of the outstanding balance on your account. However, you will no longer be treated by us as having missed any payments due to us and we will not be able to demand immediate payment of those arrears in future. Any new payments you miss going forward will be treated as arrears on your account.

Yours …………

As it talks about 18.5 i'll copy that in:

18.5 If we choose not to exercise rights against you we can still do so later.

So any thoughts anyone?

Come on guys please I really need some help on this one - maybe I should get this moved to the Lloyds section?

Hi rory good to hear from you

Ok Lloyds say:

 

I have enclosed with this letter a copy of your executed agreement, a copy of your current terms and conditions and a signed statement of your account. By providing you with the documents attached to this letter, we have satisfied our obligation to provide a copy of the executed agreement under section 78. There is no requirement under the CCA to provide you with a copy of the original signed agreement but please be assured we would not have opened a credit card account without a signed agreement. For the avoidance of any doubt we have set out in the appendix to this letter your rights under section 78.

 

Having satisfied our obligation under section 78, the egreement you have with us is fully enforceable and we shall continue to treat it as such. We will not be entering into any further correspondence with you regarding the provision of copy agreements.

 

There is more but that's the meat of it.

I thought that I might try to use CPR 31(16)? as suggested by the site team(pt2537). I know 100% that they cannot come up with a copy as I have never signed one.

Cheers

Did they actually send an agreeement at all, I notice that their letter states they have provided a copy of "your executed agreement." What exactly did they send?

Hi Magda thanks for your interest

They've sent me what appears to be two sets of terms and conditions, they are headed as "Credit Card Agreement" but neither of them have signature boxes, I quess one of them is the terms from inception and the other is from now? As I said in an earlier post, it is a long unusual (to say the least) story but I know for a fact that they do not have anything that has a signature on it. I need some way to get them to admit that fact.

Cheers

If they do not have an agreement there is absolutely nothing they can do in terms of enforcing the debt. In my own experience, often if you stick to your guns they will either admit defeat and cease pursuing the debt, or sometimes they are more persistent and will pass it from DCA to DCA, but still they are wasting their time.

you could try sending the following letter and then see what happens:

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of your companies Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify:

Just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement”

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.”

This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this case in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru­ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, what is being overlooked is the part highlighted, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should be presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues.

Yours faithfully,

Hope this helps a bit, Magda

Thanks Magda

Lloyds have ignored 2 letters using CPR rules, in view of that and the fact that they have no agreement I've cobbled together a letter, I thought something along these lines. I know there are many on here who know far more than I do, so I offer this for any comments or suggestions anyone may have.

Lloyds TSB

Card Services

Department Account Services

BrightonBN1 4BE

Dear Sirs,

Account number:

On XXXX February 2009 I wrote to your organisation requesting that you supply me a copy of the agreement for this account. My request extended to the full agreement which bore my signature.

I wrote to you again on xxxx March, to date I have not received a copy of the agreement which I requested; in fact I have not even had the courtesy extended of a reply. In view of the circumstances I do not feel it unreasonable to ask for this document to be disclosed, it is not commercially sensitive nor is it a restricted document and should be easily accessible for an organisation such as yours. The only possible reason you can have for failing to respond to my request is that my assertion is correct and that no agreement exists. As that is the case I require several things:

• The balance of this account to be placed at zero, in support of this request I quote the following:
  

Court of Appeal

WILSON v THE FIRST COUNTY TRUST LIMITED

THE VICE-CHANCELLOR

LORD JUSTICE CHADWICK

and

LORD JUSTICE RIX

Para 26

In effect, the creditor – by failing to ensure that he obtained a document signed by the debtor which contained all the prescribed terms – must (in the light of the provisions in sections 65(1) and 127(3) of the 1974 Act) be taken to have made a voluntary disposition, or gift, of the loan monies to the debtor. The creditor had chosen to part with the monies in circumstances in which it was never entitled to have them repaid.

• You have been removing funds from my current account to service this credit card account. I require these funds to be replaced as your authority for removing such originates in the agreement. Ergo, no agreement no authority.
  
• Under the same authority you have been applying penalty charges, these also need to be removed.
  
• You may have lodged unfavourable information with one or more credit reference agencies as you threatened. Any and all references must be removed and evidence of removal supplied to me.
  
• Finally in view of the situation you have led me into and the months of torment you have caused me I feel fully entitled to compensation, and await negotiation with yourselves to arrive at a package.
  

Please confirm by no later than 4pm on xxxx July 2009 that you will comply with my requests or if you will not comply, please provide your reasons in writing.

Regards

xxxx

(Digital signature)

Cheers all

Please may I have some opinions

Cheers

Well i have no idea what they are on about either in post 34 so won't comment as it would be guesswork.

They have probably complied with Section 78 from what they seem to have sent you and therefore you did the right thing moving away from that and going for the CPR route. Having said that, they ignored it.. but they will have taken notice of it even if they didn't admit to it.

To be honest it's a bit of a stalemate which is often they case until A. you start court action or B. they start court action. I know it leaves it up in the air. You could surely go with your letter above (post 49) although it's far too polite I'm afraid the only words that get taken notice of these days are aggressive in nature and even then they hardly ever budge.

You've tried the CPR.. have you tried an LBA?

I would look at the more agrressive letter i am using these days on my Amex thread and pick out what seem appropriate in your instance. Stuff like this:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/184309-davey-amex.html#post2014296

Or extra aggressive like this:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/184309-davey-amex-2.html#post2053510

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/amex/184309-davey-amex-3.html#post2081882

But don't start using words like 'extortion' or 'criminal' unless you are prepared to get sued (outside chance) as i am not personally bothered and have nothing to lose.. others are/may be in a different position.

What about charges to reclaim? Would that add up to much and have you done that yet?

This was an interesting route to take and it had a quick cave in from RBS i noticed:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/royal-bank-scotland/187177-mint-pay-back-12-a.html

Hi all

Bit of a story I'm afraid, but i'll try to keep it short.

I requested my agreement back in Jan - they sent the usual stuff T&C etc, but no agreement or anything with a signature.

I requested using CPR as suggested by one of the site team - they just ignored it. I repeated the request - they ignored that.

Now they phone me once a month to ask me to pay, and to explain why I'm not, I ask them why they wont respond to my letters, then we go round and round in circles for a little while and then part company.

Then they send me a statement each month. then they take the payment from my overdraft and we go round again for the next month.

I have to say here that unusually I know for a fact 100% that they have no signed agreement, application form or indeed anything that has my signature.

New developement, during this months phone call they denied ever receiving any of my letters despite the fact that they were all sent recorded and delivered, and in fact they have responded to some of them.

Now during this call the girl left me hanging for about 10 mins then said I should send copies to:

200 Priory Crescent

Southend on Sea

Does anyone know this address?

Does anyone know how I can close my current account, even though it's overdrawn?

Has anyone got any ideas how I move forward?

Cheers

Is this Lloyds or RBS/Natwest because the Southend address is for Royal Bank of Scotland (Mastercard)

Hi Michael

Good to hear from you the card is a Lloyds platinum master card

Cheers

The address (from Lloyds Platinum T&C's) is:

Lloyds TSB Card Services,

1-9 Gloucester Place,

Brighton

BN1

4LT