Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1141
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Just a thought here about the ref vote. We have trials by jury. From all walks of life to decide on a court case. They listen to the evidence but there is also gut feeling involved. The jury system is with us and so the EU ref mirrors that same format. Everyone eligible was given the chance to vote. You would have to argue against our whole democratic system if you feel the EU ref was not bonifide.


  2. #1142
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    its not the ref result in issue. its whats going to happen now given the stupidity of it.
    for me, theres's no point being 'in' but not quite in like the norwegians or the canadians for eg. it's either remain, or get out fully and see how it goes (whilst keeping in mind that most of the reasons put forward for exit wont change eg immigration, free movement, more money for the nhs, etc).
    but, it cant be the latter when May is promising the likes of the city, motor industry etc full access, and yet just today she's saying there cant be bits and pieces to be 'in' the eu but out. what a mess. anyway, shldn't be posting here. good luck.


  3. #1143
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Glad you posted Ford Messy May


  4. #1144
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch70 View Post
    I agree Toby

    While MW may frame the data in a particular way the underlying data may be good and valid

    AS you know there are tow quote I really believe in

    Lies. damned lies and statistics
    and
    If you torture the data long enough, it will confess

    just like the latest interpretation that unsecured (eg credit card) debt is at record highs - twice the level of a year ago, and that just the interest on this is costing and average of 1/4 of peoples net income,

    Yet this is the same high levels of unsecured debt that was touted as evidence of 'high consumer confidence' after Brexit by some just a month or two ago.

    Since when was hammering the credit cards and payday loansicon at record levels ever anything but either stupidity or desperation?


  5. #1145
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    The thing about our constitution or lack of it is that we are a representative democracy and do not rule the country by mob rule. There should never have been a referendum and even when there was it was not binding. The Scottish referendum of 1979 gave a similar result to the eu one yet nothing was done. Ok so it led directly to the fall of the labour government and the installation of the most hated Tory leader of all time but hey ho.

    May can not last much longer surely.


  6. #1146
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    Angry Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by determindator View Post
    Everyone eligible was given the chance to vote. You would have to argue against our whole democratic system if you feel the EU ref was not bonifide.
    Perhaps, but not necessarily.

    Few people, if any, can have all the relevant information, so I posit that we vote based on the information given and the policies stated, and should rightly expect that
    * The information given is as clear, concise and honest as possible (and that doesn't mean as politically or personally expedient)
    * The policies stated are carried out as expected by the voting populace without needing weasel words to justify what they actually do.

    Point 1

    So unless there is
    * 350M a week extra for the NHS
    * A stop to ALL immigration and a move to a points based system or better yet a job offer immigration system
    * The actually impossible in the modern world pre-emminence of UK law
    (what about agreements with other countries, like the likely upcoming UK/US agreement where US companies will sue the UK government under US LAW not UK LAW if the UK doesn't allow US pharmaceuticals to sell stuff to the UK NHS which contain UK banned ingredients)

    Consider also courts like the UN's international court of Justice (despite the USA having urinated all over that already by choosing what they abide by).
    Or do we just walk away from the UN and all our international agreements?
    Become like North Korea?


    So unless ALL these are met as stated by the main protagonists during the referendum
    Brexit is NOT the referendum Brexit


    Point 2
    Lies and withheld information aside (which should negate the referendum and have the parties in court for treason, abuse of office and many other charges)
    The ONLY possible remit that was given by the advisory referendum is very specific, and is to simply leave the EU,
    NOT to renegotiate (secret or otherwise) with the EU or anyone else,


    SO.. as at least one stated goal of Brexit cannot realistically be met,
    .. and none, especially the only real remit (whether or not that was the voters intent), will be met
    - its far worse than a farce, and cannot be considered valid for anything except as a reason to permanently eject many of our current politicians.

    and I defy anyone to realistically and justifiably dispute those observations.



  7. #1147
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch70 View Post
    Incidentally , I am ot sure where they get the figure for average pay from, anyone actually writing anything should specify , mean or median

    I suspect this figure is the mean, skewed by the stupid sums earned by the few
    Apparently, in 2013/14 with the top 10% earners stripped out:

    The average salary for the lower paid 90% of the population was under £13K
    compared to the £24500 - £26,500 (ons VSicon equity trust figures) national average with the top 10% included.

    The median average for the bottom 20 per cent was £5,521

    and we all know the differential has massively increased since then.

    http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/0...uve-been-told/


  8. #1148
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Following Mays statements:
    Banks with large London operations say they will step up lobbying European officials because they are running out of arguments to convince the British government the industry needs single market access after Britain leaves the European Union.
    The focus is shifting because after scores of meetings and research reports, banks, which say they may begin moving staff and operations out of London in the next few months if there is no clarity, feel they are running out of new points to make.

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKBN14U176


    HSBCicon chairman says banks may trigger Brexit contigency plans by March

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKBN14U1FR




    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...=1#post4981223


  9. #1149
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Determinatior
    While I agree with Toby regarding the lies you are missing the whole point of our democracy.

    We live in a representative democracy and not a direct one. For that reason and that reason alone there should never have been a referendum.

    If you believe we need direct democracy , that needs adopting by a political party as a manifesto pledge and changes made.

    Incidentally, come the glorious day after the revolution there will be no democracy just a benign dictatorship because as proven the electorate can not be trusted, he'll they voted the Tories in, isn't that enough!


  10. #1150
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    I doubt folk will read those links I gave well enough, so I'll highlight that they almost certainly highlight Mays plans.

    They (May and Osbourne) want the bankers to start lobbying the EU statesmen to get effectively a sliding reduction in their access to the single market and passporting with the EU completely on board on this.

    This means May will not have to lobby hard to get the bankers preferential treatment with the political fallout that would generate, and the bankers would get more time to move while keeping access to the EU AND the protection of the UK government from EU regs and requirements much of which protection they will lose once they do move into the EU proper (which is why they want to stay here if they can get free access)

    May would avoid immediate fallout of a rapid exodus and the issue of banks moving abroad would be someone elses problem a few years down the line.

    It is quite clear in the links for those who look.



    Quote Originally Posted by fletch70 View Post
    Incidentally, come the glorious day after the revolution there will be no democracy just a benign dictatorship because as proven the electorate can not be trusted, he'll they voted the Tories in, isn't that enough!
    and theres Jeremys plans nailed too.


  11. #1151
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch70 View Post
    Determinatior
    While I agree with Toby regarding the lies you are missing the whole point of our democracy.

    We live in a representative democracy and not a direct one. For that reason and that reason alone there should never have been a referendum.
    Of course I expected the misrepresentation argument. The electorate comes from all walks of life and for those who did vote had varying reasons why they voted the way they did.

    There had been calls for a referendum from the electorate for many years, not just MP's. In the end this call was listened too.

    The other alternative would be to nominate you for instance, to tell the people there won't be a vote because you don't understand about these things so you're not getting a vote on it.


  12. #1152
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    People vote quite often for emotional reasons, rather than calculated logic. They voted leave for many different reasons, some of which had nothing to do with EU membership.

    Older people voted leave mostly because they don't like change and see the growing population as a threat to the type of country they prefer. But voting leave was not a vote for controlling net migration to tens of thousands or a any particular model of immigration controls. It is quite possible Government could calculate that they need 300,000 net migration each year to service the needs of the country and therefore there is little difference to the current population growth we have seen.


  13. #1153
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by determindator View Post
    Of course I expected the misrepresentation argument.
    Argument??

    Are you trying to infer there that the issues surrounding

    EU membership, fees, immigration,
    The actual worth and importance to UK business of EU trade,
    the 'renegotiation and what was possible, let alone what was actually negotiated for,
    what would likely occur in the case of a leave vote,
    and what would actually be done in the case of a leave vote

    was even moderately accurately described and defined?
    (being as they still haven't even now)


  14. #1154
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    No you misinterpreted me maybe more clear to say the argument of misrepresentation.

    Other reasons for voting out were people against a federal state as they see it.


  15. #1155
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Pound sinks lower again today. Might be some temporary gain as foreign companies invest their higher valued currencies in the UK. But shop prices will increase due to import costs and feed into inflation.

    Brexit processes will prove very expensive for the UK and i am not convinced that it will happen. You can't change 40 years of part integration with other countries, where companies operate across borders, very easily. A company like Airbus where they complete different parts of planes in different countries, will be hurt by any Brexit that involves coming out of the customs area. The UK aviation industry would face massive problems and jobs will be lost.


  16. #1156
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by unclebulgaria67 View Post
    Pound sinks lower again today. Might be some temporary gain as foreign companies invest their higher valued currencies in the UK. But shop prices will increase due to import costs and feed into inflation.

    Brexit processes will prove very expensive for the UK and i am not convinced that it will happen. You can't change 40 years of part integration with other countries, where companies operate across borders, very easily. A company like Airbus where they complete different parts of planes in different countries, will be hurt by any Brexit that involves coming out of the customs area. The UK aviation industry would face massive problems and jobs will be lost.

    Despite all that, barring a successful legal challenge AND a parliamentary rebellion which would be touted as betraying the voice of the people (yet these same people will also betray the people anyway as Brexit will NOT be Brexit as stated above), May WILL trigger article 50.

    You are then into realms of quite possibly needing the agreement of the EU to withdraw from withdrawing, and I think France and even Germany might well ensure that gets veto'd.
    Spain would certainly use their veto as a bargaining chip for Gibraltar.

    just like the west teaming up with the sauds and Turks to destabilise Syria, there is NO upside to this for the UK. None whatsoever whatever happens.

    The whole government is split into factions just like the country.
    Corbyn wants out of the EU
    Whatsjisface continues to waffle soft brexit phuuut


    So short of a miracle (enough MP's growing a pair and a conscience):

    May will trigger article 50

    Scotland WILL pretty much immediately announce a second referendum, and they will probably vote Independence by a small (but probably larger than Brexit) majority - and given the Brexit result, that will HAVE to be honored.

    The Union will be broken before the UK leaves the EU, and who knows how far that will spread.

    So along with the banks leaving - possible straight away, possibly over a few years,
    A much smaller nation and economy,
    wto tarrifs increasing costs of imports and exports with some preferential mutual free trade like motors - so pretty much EVERYTHING will be more expensive for us
    The loss of the Trident bases and exclusivity of Tridents access to the Scottish waters (or paying Scotland vast sums to keep them) and Scotland will still want to access its oil and gas reserves there

    The best the UK can hope for is the collapse of the EU before 2 years is up and drag them down with us. Possible but not likely. Penn is NOT going to win.
    Still no upside for us, but everyone else local except the Russians will be smaller too.


  17. #1157
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Labour MP Tristram Hunt Standing Down



    potentially yet another in the continuing death blows for Labour under Corbyn, with Carbuncles stances on the EU and well most things making Labour unelectable and leaving May politically by and large unopposed on her EU plans (whatever they Maybe)

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/matthewcham...y9d#.ufW5qQObN


    LOL
    "His appointment as V&A director was approved by prime minister Theresa May and culture secretary Karen Bradley,"


  18. #1158
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    I really worry about the future of British politics. Much as admire Corbyn for his beliefs I am concerned he will not be electable and we will have a new wave of long right wing government until labour lurches to the economy c right as it did under Blair. I am also concerned that with the inevitable drop in economy c prosperity we are facing there will be no money for social policy.

    As for Scotland, it would be wrong to break up the u ion unless the English Welsh and Irish also had a say although I can foresee possible federalism as a short term answer although some argue that federalism doesn't work when one part is much bigger, morepowerful and economically rich than the others.

    Finally , the benign dictatorship will be headed by yours truly, I say benign but I have the list prepared and the site of the proverbial wall decided.


  19. #1159
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch70 View Post
    I really worry about the future of British politics.
    So do I, but I think the real issue is that little has changed, its just that people are becoming more aware.

    Quote Originally Posted by fletch70 View Post
    Much as admire Corbyn for his beliefs
    I dont. I firmly believe he has demonstrated just how corrupt and self serving he is.
    His is blatently the politics of Stalin:

    He is right and no one should question
    If they do deselct as Siberia isn't yet an option.
    Allow (if not promote) threats against those who disagree.

    He should undoubtedly take the place of Thatcher as the worst threat to the British working class in my memory.
    and I am a lifelong (with very few exceptions) labour voter and union member.


  20. #1160
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    Default Re: Article 50 Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by tobyjugg2 View Post
    About time the reports/professional analysts started coming to the same inescapable conclusion:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...&utm_hp_ref=uk


    Theresa Maybe-Maybenot say to EU:
    'I want free access to EU markets and travel for the UK City of London financiers - whatever their nationality - including Russians, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese and Americans'

    EU replies:
    Ho Ho HO, Paris, Frankfurt and Eire are lovely this and every time of year


    Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck say to EU:
    'If you dont give free access to EU markets and travel for the UK city financiers I wont let your citizens stay in the UK

    EU replies:
    Then sadly UK citizens will no longer be able to stay in EU countries and you will get 2 million voting citizens back in your country very upset with you and looking to use their votes.
    You will also need to explain to your Brexit voting farming area citizens why they will now have to work 16 hour shifts in fields in all weathers for less than minimum wage.


    Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck say to EU:
    'If you dont let our City of London financiers have free access and travel I will slap tariffs on your German and French cars and parts coming here.

    EU replies:
    then we will do the same to UK car manufacturing. Please go and explain that to Toyota and tell them to permanently hold off on their UK investment. We have some nice opportunities for them here in the EU - they are looking at a lovely spot in Poland as we speak.


    Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck say to EU:
    We have some secret tactics that you, our trading partners of decades, know nothing about, we will use them if you dont give free access to EU markets and travel for the UK city financiers.

    EU replies:
    This is a serious matter. Please wait outside while we discuss this serious matter.


    As Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck exit the room they hear:
    'bring out the schnapps and patisseries and lets get this party started
    - bring in the German French and RoI finance ministers and the UK City of London financiers'

    Flip Hammond joins the fray and the trinity barge back into the room.

    Flip squeaks: 'we warned you, we will “change our economic model” to a low-tax, low-regulation system if the EU refuses the UK any access to the single market.

    EU says: I'm sure your citizens will appreciate a reduction in their taxes. We applaud you.


    Flip squeaks alarmedly:
    No I don't mean reduce the plebs taxes, I mean we will reduce the taxes further for businesses and get rid of protection for workers and those stupid rights, like we cant make them work long hours like doctors or fire them whenever we want to.

    EU says: Ah sorry we misunderstood. You mean you are going to give big business official tax relief on top of their UK protected tax fiddling to 'cover their costs' for trading with us. Sort of making the UK's many offshore tax havens official policy perhaps?
    Surely, as so many pay so little if any UK tax anyway as they use your existing UK tax havens, that is no real incentive?
    Or are you proposing to officially pay them to bankrupticon the world have for their own benefit? - or at least bankrupticon the UK as we now have protections in place - which is why they resist moving to us.
    I see your Brexit/Leave chairman has returned to his villa in the South of France.

    EU continues: A cunning plan. They wont need to move to the EU to make money if you just give them money anyway? We look forward to the cheap loans that they will undoubtedly offer us to make even more money from the money you give them - presumably with the British taxpayer paying for them via higher taxation?
    ... in addition to the higher costs of living and wage freezes?
    So sadly just more of the same for the UK taxpayer then?


    Flip says: - errrr. You are missing the point

    EU says: We dont believe we are. Please leave and allow us to get on with our business.

    Flip says: You do mean the room don't you?



    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...come-tax-haven

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ance-on-europe



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