Determinatior

While I agree with Toby regarding the lies you are missing the whole point of our democracy.

 

We live in a representative democracy and not a direct one. For that reason and that reason alone there should never have been a referendum.

 

There had been calls for a referendum from the electorate for many years, not just MP's. In the end this call was listened too.

The other alternative would be to nominate you for instance, to tell the people there won't be a vote because you don't understand about these things so you're not getting a vote on it.

People vote quite often for emotional reasons, rather than calculated logic. They voted leave for many different reasons, some of which had nothing to do with EU membership.

Older people voted leave mostly because they don't like change and see the growing population as a threat to the type of country they prefer. But voting leave was not a vote for controlling net migration to tens of thousands or a any particular model of immigration controls. It is quite possible Government could calculate that they need 300,000 net migration each year to service the needs of the country and therefore there is little difference to the current population growth we have seen.

Of course I expected the misrepresentation argument.

Argument??

Are you trying to infer there that the issues surrounding

EU membership, fees, immigration,

The actual worth and importance to UK business of EU trade,

the 'renegotiation and what was possible, let alone what was actually negotiated for,

what would likely occur in the case of a leave vote,

and what would actually be done in the case of a leave vote

was even moderately accurately described and defined?

(being as they still haven't even now)

No you misinterpreted me:-) maybe more clear to say the argument of misrepresentation.

Other reasons for voting out were people against a federal state as they see it.

Pound sinks lower again today. Might be some temporary gain as foreign companies invest their higher valued currencies in the UK. But shop prices will increase due to import costs and feed into inflation.

Brexit processes will prove very expensive for the UK and i am not convinced that it will happen. You can't change 40 years of part integration with other countries, where companies operate across borders, very easily. A company like Airbus where they complete different parts of planes in different countries, will be hurt by any Brexit that involves coming out of the customs area. The UK aviation industry would face massive problems and jobs will be lost.

Pound sinks lower again today. Might be some temporary gain as foreign companies invest their higher valued currencies in the UK. But shop prices will increase due to import costs and feed into inflation.

 

Brexit processes will prove very expensive for the UK and i am not convinced that it will happen. You can't change 40 years of part integration with other countries, where companies operate across borders, very easily. A company like Airbus where they complete different parts of planes in different countries, will be hurt by any Brexit that involves coming out of the customs area. The UK aviation industry would face massive problems and jobs will be lost.

Despite all that, barring a successful legal challenge AND a parliamentary rebellion which would be touted as betraying the voice of the people (yet these same people will also betray the people anyway as Brexit will NOT be Brexit as stated above), May WILL trigger article 50.

You are then into realms of quite possibly needing the agreement of the EU to withdraw from withdrawing, and I think France and even Germany might well ensure that gets veto'd.

Spain would certainly use their veto as a bargaining chip for Gibraltar.

just like the west teaming up with the sauds and Turks to destabilise Syria, there is NO upside to this for the UK. None whatsoever whatever happens.

The whole government is split into factions just like the country.

Corbyn wants out of the EU

Whatsjisface continues to waffle soft brexit phuuut

So short of a miracle (enough MP's growing a pair and a conscience):

May will trigger article 50

Scotland WILL pretty much immediately announce a second referendum, and they will probably vote Independence by a small (but probably larger than Brexit) majority - and given the Brexit result, that will HAVE to be honored.

The Union will be broken before the UK leaves the EU, and who knows how far that will spread.

So along with the banks leaving - possible straight away, possibly over a few years,

A much smaller nation and economy,

wto tarrifs increasing costs of imports and exports with some preferential mutual free trade like motors - so pretty much EVERYTHING will be more expensive for us

The loss of the Trident bases and exclusivity of Tridents access to the Scottish waters (or paying Scotland vast sums to keep them) and Scotland will still want to access its oil and gas reserves there

The best the UK can hope for is the collapse of the EU before 2 years is up and drag them down with us. Possible but not likely. Penn is NOT going to win.

Still no upside for us, but everyone else local except the Russians will be smaller too.

Labour MP Tristram Hunt Standing Down

potentially yet another in the continuing death blows for Labour under Corbyn, with Carbuncles stances on the EU and well most things making Labour unelectable and leaving May politically by and large unopposed on her EU plans (whatever they Maybe)

https://www.buzzfeed.com/matthewchampion/labour-mp-tristram-hunt-standing-down-to-become-director-of?utm_term=.iuKp7qy9d#.ufW5qQObN

LOL

"His appointment as V&A director was approved by prime minister Theresa May and culture secretary Karen Bradley,"

I really worry about the future of British politics. Much as admire Corbyn for his beliefs I am concerned he will not be electable and we will have a new wave of long right wing government until labour lurches to the economy c right as it did under Blair. I am also concerned that with the inevitable drop in economy c prosperity we are facing there will be no money for social policy.

As for Scotland, it would be wrong to break up the u ion unless the English Welsh and Irish also had a say although I can foresee possible federalism as a short term answer although some argue that federalism doesn't work when one part is much bigger, morepowerful and economically rich than the others.

Finally , the benign dictatorship will be headed by yours truly, I say benign but I have the list prepared and the site of the proverbial wall decided.

I really worry about the future of British politics.

So do I, but I think the real issue is that little has changed, its just that people are becoming more aware.

Much as admire Corbyn for his beliefs

I dont. I firmly believe he has demonstrated just how corrupt and self serving he is.

His is blatently the politics of Stalin:

He is right and no one should question

If they do deselct as Siberia isn't yet an option.

Allow (if not promote) threats against those who disagree.

He should undoubtedly take the place of Thatcher as the worst threat to the British working class in my memory.

and I am a lifelong (with very few exceptions) labour voter and union member.

About time the reports/professional analysts started coming to the same inescapable conclusion:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/hard-brexit-predicted-by-uk-in-a-changing-europe-think-tank-theresa-may-boris-johnson-new-study-single-market-no-customs-union_uk_585ba5dee4b00768ddce2fc7?8am8sce1qmjxy1fw29&utm_hp_ref=uk

 

 

Theresa Maybe-Maybenot say to EU:

'I want free access to EU markets and travel for the UK City of London financiers - whatever their nationality - including Russians, Arabs, Chinese, Japanese and Americans'

 

EU replies:

Ho Ho HO, Paris, Frankfurt and Eire are lovely this and every time of year

 

 

Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck say to EU:

'If you dont give free access to EU markets and travel for the UK city financiers I wont let your citizens stay in the UK

 

EU replies:

Then sadly UK citizens will no longer be able to stay in EU countries and you will get 2 million voting citizens back in your country very upset with you and looking to use their votes.

You will also need to explain to your Brexit voting farming area citizens why they will now have to work 16 hour shifts in fields in all weathers for less than minimum wage.

 

 

Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck say to EU:

'If you dont let our City of London financiers have free access and travel I will slap tariffs on your German and French cars and parts coming here.

 

EU replies:

then we will do the same to UK car manufacturing. Please go and explain that to Toyota and tell them to permanently hold off on their UK investment. We have some nice opportunities for them here in the EU - they are looking at a lovely spot in Poland as we speak.

 

 

Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck say to EU:

We have some secret tactics that you, our trading partners of decades, know nothing about, we will use them if you dont give free access to EU markets and travel for the UK city financiers.

 

EU replies:

This is a serious matter. Please wait outside while we discuss this serious matter.

 

 

As Theresa Maybe-Maybenot and Dopey Duck exit the room they hear:

'bring out the schnapps and patisseries and lets get this party started

- bring in the German French and RoI finance ministers and the UK City of London financiers'

Flip Hammond joins the fray and the trinity barge back into the room.

Flip squeaks: 'we warned you, we will “change our economic model” to a low-tax, low-regulation system if the EU refuses the UK any access to the single market.

EU says: I'm sure your citizens will appreciate a reduction in their taxes. We applaud you.

Flip squeaks alarmedly: No I don't mean reduce the plebs taxes, I mean we will reduce the taxes further for businesses and get rid of protection for workers and those stupid rights, like we cant make them work long hours like doctors or fire them whenever we want to.

EU says: Ah sorry we misunderstood. You mean you are going to give big business official tax relief on top of their UK protected tax fiddling to 'cover their costs' for trading with us. Sort of making the UK's many offshore tax havens official policy perhaps?

Surely, as so many pay so little if any UK tax anyway as they use your existing UK tax havens, that is no real incentive?

Or are you proposing to officially pay them to bankrupt the world have for their own benefit? - or at least bankrupt the UK as we now have protections in place - which is why they resist moving to us.

I see your Brexit/Leave chairman has returned to his villa in the South of France.

EU continues: A cunning plan. They wont need to move to the EU to make money if you just give them money anyway? We look forward to the cheap loans that they will undoubtedly offer us to make even more money from the money you give them - presumably with the British taxpayer paying for them via higher taxation?

... in addition to the higher costs of living and wage freezes?

So sadly just more of the same for the UK taxpayer then?

Flip says: - errrr. You are missing the point

EU says: We dont believe we are. Please leave and allow us to get on with our business.

Flip says: You do mean the room don't you?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/15/philip-hammond-suggests-uk-outside-single-market-could-become-tax-haven

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/16/labour-mps-press-jeremy-corbyn-for-clearer-stance-on-europe

We seem perfectly placed to become a tax haven. I suppose in many respects we already are and maybe we will become more Swiss like or the Channel Islands. We've always been seen as a safe place to keep your money and that has been growing over the years. Something about the water around us creates that special feeling.

No more rolling around laughing you'll do yourself a mischief:madgrin:

We seem perfectly placed to become a tax haven.

Not without passporting PLUS protection from EU regs that financiers had in the UK as an EU member.

Thats the whole point.

UK at 'the center' of Tax Havens with money 'stolen' from developing nations

http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/commentanalysis/ethicaleconomics/theukandtaxhavens.aspx

Remember the Nigerian prime minister not being interested in a Cameron apology, just their assets back

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-global-taxavoidance-nigeria-idUKKCN0Y21HL

What s a tax haven?

Somewhere the mega rich get even richer without contributing to the economy or the wealth of the nation.

As it is, these big corporations pay virtually no tax, some may even cost the U.K.money. They pay little or no tax yet pay many employees low wages who then get tax credits

An interesting and logical set of assumptions

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/18/europe-loser-brexit-britain

Like one of responses to one of the comments:

Comment:

The corrupt, inept Torys have had us thrown out of the single market. Anything to keep their own snouts at the trough.

The Eton Mess will take years to clean up.

Reply:

Hang on, it was the fear of immigrants north of England vote that largely swung the referendum. The Etonian blunder was giving us the referendum.

UKIP goes all in and calls Labour:

Privatisation of the NHS vs Brexit

Lets see what the rest gamble, and will Farage throw his 10 gallon hat in

Will the LibDems continue their surge

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ukip-paul-nuttall-stoke-by-election_uk_587f72dbe4b0831b7c6e5f11?utm_hp_ref=uk&-uk

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2017/01/wholl-win-stoke-trent

http://news.ladbrokes.com/politics/british-politics/odds-slashed-on-liberal-democrats-to-win-stoke-by-election.html

I wonder if May is doing a Boris, and looking for someone please to give her a valid excuse to escape the demands of her 'victory'

(I see Boris is staying true to form as a complete liability to everyone and everything)

Slightly off topic but...

After reading what May is saying about globalisation, big business and compassion I am wondering if there has been an alien abduction.

Theresa May is right about globalisation and the issues, but i am not sure she really knows what the UK government should do.

I am against Brexit for a number of reasons, but i do think the EU is responsible for policies which are bad for international free trade. The EU common agricultural policy is too protective in regard to EU farming interests and causes major problems for farmers in Africa. Apparently many African farmers find it very difficult to trade with EU countries and therefore increase prosperity of their families/workers.

Theresa May needs to explain what the EU has been doing wrong and how a UK economy outside of the EU trading with the world is going to benefit the country. The EU is a protectionist bloc and it does so to protect interests. The US under Trump appears likely to be more protectionist and this could mean fewer contracts for UK companies. Trading with the world might not be as easy as Theresa May is suggesting, as i am not sure free trade will really exist.

I am against Brexit for a number of reasons, but i do think the EU is responsible for policies which are bad for international free trade. The EU common agricultural policy is too protective in regard to EU farming interests and causes major problems for farmers in Africa. Apparently many African farmers find it very difficult to trade with EU countries and therefore increase prosperity of their families/workers.

Unc,

Surely thats the entire reason for a club - to protect the interests of the members who support it,

.. Not club together to pay for others at the expense of your members (although the EU does do more of that than almost anyone - unless someone can demonstrate differently)

The wages and standard of living in the EU (or anywhere) depend on it not being a race to the bottom/cheapest.

Why have tax competition and exporting of profits around the EU, so companies pay as little tax as possible ?

It will be interesting what the Tories want to negotiate with the EU in regard to tax competition and tax rules on companies operation in UK, as well as EU single market. I suspect the Tories are quite keen to keep the current rules, so they don't upset their friends in business.

Why have tax competition and exporting of profits around the EU, so companies pay as little tax as possible ?

I thought tax evasion havens was just the soon to be ex UK bit of the EU and that the UK preserved that. although there are of course variations in corporation tax.

I have a strong sense that EU taxation levels will be .. even more significantly 'leveled' once the UK has gone, as will exporting of profits to avoid tax.

With globalisation you need to ask, why are farmers from countries without enough food to support themselves exporting to the EU. Not only does it harm the country it adds to carbon emissions. Maybe as well they need the money to pay for the imf/world bank loans.

Then you get countries who destroy farming land that they need to produce food to build industrial plants to serve the 'north' .

What is wrong with the days of seasonal fruit and veg .

What was wrong with Jif or Marathon Bars?

There is a lot wrong with the EU but more wrong with globalisation

With globalisation you need to ask, why are farmers from countries without enough food to support themselves exporting to the EU. Not only does it harm the country it adds to carbon emissions. Maybe as well they need the money to pay for the imf/world bank loans.

Same as always - the 'owners' of the land/farm sell it where they make the best return.

Name changes are due to clashes in branding.

Same as always - the 'owners' of the land/farm sell it where they make the best return.

 

Name changes are due to clashes in branding.

IMO name changes are done to give international branding which saves costs in the long term increasing profit. I am sick to death of seeing adverts that are clearly dubbed into English - its the non syncing of the mouth and voice that drives me mad.

I am not convinced by your argument about them selling to male the best return as they are frequently exploited. It may seem an attractive proposition in the beginning but they soon get squeezed.

I know its a bit out of date but lets lend money so a country can build a nuclear reactor (that is never commissioned) on a 'fault line'

I am not convinced by your argument about them selling to male the best return as they are frequently exploited.

No argument there from me. I did over-simplify.

Perhaps more accurate would be :

Those who make the decisions make them based on making the best return...

(be that best return money, trade or power)

But generally whoever can make the decision (in any country) almost exclusively does it based on maximising return.

UK fishermen are happy to sell UK fish,

and UK farmers are happy to sell UK best beef

to the continental businesses for more than UK businesses are prepared or able to pay,

.. despite moaning about EU regulations and then apparently wholesale voting Brexit and risking having to sell their goods in the UK for less afterwards

!!!

Still, maybe us UK taxpayers will be able to return to being able to afford new Zealand lamb shipped from the other side of the world ..... rather than the extortionate cost of UK meat

Not all bad then

Mind you, the government will probably be quick to subsidise their loyal farming voters ...... or will they?