Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #81
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    Quote Originally Posted by Twinney View Post
    Thats what I thought.

    do I keep this till the court day or should I add this to the additions of my witness statement?
    Keep all this for your day in court now, you've submitted your WS. All that remains is to destroy their WS & "evidence" on the day. Doesn't sound like it's going to be too difficult

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  2. #82
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    attached is the statement. sorry i missed rotating a couple of pictures. Yes the photo copies are that bad its not my scanner

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  3. #83
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    I'm going to have to leave this one to EB as I haven't got time tonight, and I'm a bit busy over the next couple of days. However, having given that a quick look through, I can already tell you that it's going to be ripped to shreds. Conflicting signage is just the start!

    You've got nothing to worry about at all, you've already as good as won this

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  4. #84
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    Thanks DF


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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    the main thing about the Excel parking bit is that VCS HAVE NO LOCUS STANDI.
    This means that as they didnt sign a contract with anyone they cannot legally sue you and win because they are the worng people, it would be Excel who would have had this right ( if they got everything else right and that is unlikely)

    There are other examples of this on the Parking pranksters blog that you can copy and quote.
    You need to get this across to the judge before anyone else says anything.


    You could also put it in writing and send it to the court and ask that the claim be struck out on the basis that VCS ( co reg 02498826) have no locus standi as the parking manangement agreement was between Staghold and Excel parking services (co reg 02878122)
    Just because the same bandit owns both companies does not mean they are the same or interchangeable.

    Let the court know that VCS know this from previous cases they have lost so their claim is unreasonable and therefore you want to claim for a full costs recovery order under CPR 27.14.2

    You can copy this to BW and hope that they then drop the matter before the day but if they only drop it the day before turn up anyway and ask to see the judge to have the matter formally knocked down.

    Post up you draft letter before you snd it just to make sure that you have all the relevant info and wording as it is critical that you say about locus standi.

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  6. #86
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    What i have found on the parking prankster blog are these, but they all refer to incorrect signage.

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...ose-wrong.html
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...scontinue.html

    I dont know if these are the ones you were refering to, there are also about half a dozen other cases that were dropped that refer to the same car park where the main signs say excel and the ticket was VCS.

    In my case the signage said VCS.


    The contract between VCS and EXCEL is a fixed twelve month contract from march 13 , so unless there is another one i guess it has run out anyway. Does the contract between VCS and Excel not give VCS the right ? obviously still not seen the contract between staghold and excel

    below is a letter for you to look at and amend/scrap. not quite sure how to word it. got most off PP



    Dear BW Legal,

    The land owners contract is between Staghold Ltd and Excel Parking Limited and therefore Vehicle Control Services have no locus standi

    I therefore look forward to receiving your notice of discontinuance within 7 days.

    If you fail to cancel the hearing I will ask for my full costs under 27.14(2)g
    https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...s/part27#27.14

    This will include my full time spent on this matter at the litigant in person rate of 19/hour.

    I refer you to the following blog posts, which confirm you are well aware of this matter from other cases.
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...ose-wrong.html
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...scontinue.html

    I will make the court aware of these blog posts should you proceed to a hearing, as well as these cases which you are fully aware of.

    Discontinued
    VCS v Zozulya A8QZ6666
    VCS v Ms M 3QZ53955
    VCS v Ms O C8DP9D8C
    VCS v Mr H C2DP0H7C
    VCS v Mr W C1DP3H5V


  7. #87
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    I'll pick through the bones of this tomorrow. Don't be in too much of a rush to send BWL anything just yet, there's always Monday's post if necessary. Don't be too concerned about what signs were where at the time when your vehicle was parked there.

    Your major advantage is their own evidence that is so deeply flawed that it will serve to cripple their case when you take it and turn it against them

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  8. #88
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    post up what you say is a copy of the contract between VCS and Excel. Dont send anything to court until we have seen this.


  9. #89
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    Quote Originally Posted by ericsbrother View Post
    post up what you say is a copy of the contract between VCS and Excel. Dont send anything to court until we have seen this.
    Post #82

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  10. #90
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ericsbrother View Post
    post up what you say is a copy of the contract between VCS and Excel. Dont send anything to court until we have seen this.
    Thanks

    I am away today, but first thing jnthd morning I will post the contract


  11. #91
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    Twinney, there seems to be at least one page from their WS missing. It jumps from 15.2 to 22. Do you have the missing bits, and if you do, can you scan and post them please.

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  12. #92
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    the contract between VCS and Excel is for a fixed term of a year.
    No reference to the landowner granting Excel any rights to them in the first place and we know that they dont own the land,
    that is down to JP Morgan (not even Staghold as they broke their mortgageicon terms nad had it taken away
    - what you sent into court is all about other properties and predates the action by the bank).


    I also notice that the photographs have different dates on them from 2013 up to 2016 and they have all been doctored rather than being raw images.


    The photos themselves show that there is no signage at the entrance to the land and the wall mounted signs are illegible from any distance.


    They also admit that it is permit holders only so that is a matter of prohibition and not an offer of a contract.
    Again there are plenty of cases about this on the pranksters blog so copy those off and take them with you.
    Most are to do with residential parking but the principle is the same.


    Also look at the pranksters blog of dec 2016 and you will find an article about a place called Heath Parade where the " no parking" sign was found to be prohibitive rather than a contracual offer so get all of that printed off and the case unmbers and precis noted.


    This is not case precedent but is almost as compelling as it limits what other judges my do unless they have another good reason to ignoreicon and that is rare as most dont like setting local precedents that are likely to be challenged.


  13. #93
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    I've made a few notes so far that I'll post once I know if there's any part of their "evidence" missing. But I honestly don't think it's going to get as far as discussing signage, prohibitive or otherwise. I think their own contract (I use the term loosely) is going to sink their case without a trace.

    They're already on the good ship VCS Titanic and they're busily building their own icebergs

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  14. #94
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    attached is the contract again if anyone couldnt see it in the previous post. also the page i missed , sorry

    Attached Files

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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    PDFicon above merged to one correct version and redacted properly.
    image of contract darkened too
    so we can see it


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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    Sorry about that the bw statement is attached with the missing page, and a darker version of the contract (page 9) hope you can read it ok.

    Attached Files

  17. #97
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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    OK, on top of what EB has already mentioned, here are my notes on the BWL WS. The missing page didn't (as expected) change very much.


    First things first, although I may be teaching Granny to 'suck eggs'.

    Look smart. Don't go overboard, but smart casual is the order of the day.

    The Judge is referred to as Sir or Ma'am (pronounced Marm not Mam) unless you're told otherwise.

    Don't forget to bow. You're not bowing to the Judge, but to who'm the Judge represents, ie, the Queen. They love it when you get the basics right.

    --

    Before you even go in to court, try to speak (in very general terms) to whoever their "advocate" is.

    DO NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING THAT THEY TRY TO HAND YOU! If they try to hand you things (basically anything other than a business card), there's a good chance that they are attempting to ambush you. This is an abuse of process and they know it! So just say 'no thanks, if the judge allows it you can hand it to me in court'.

    Find out their 'advocates' name. Search the SRA ( http://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/?Pro=True ) and/or the CILEX site ( http://www.cilex.org.uk/about_cilex/...ners-directory ) to see if they are a registered Solicitor.

    They may send the tea boy (or as good as) and they may not have a right of audience in the court. If you can destroy their case as soon as you walk in the room, all the better. If their 'advocate' isn't allowed to address the court then their case will be on "papers only" while you'll be allowed to speak. It'll be nice to watch their 'advocate' squirming as you completely destroy their case.

    If they're not a registered solicitor, make sure that you bring this to the attention of the Judge before their 'advocate' speaks. THIS IS IMPORTANT. Take along copies of the Legal Services Act 2007, Section 192 ( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/29/section/192 ) and the transcripts of McShane -v- Lincoln ( http://live.barcouncil.netxtra.net/m..._audience1.PDF ) and Ellis -v- Larson ( http://live.barcouncil.netxtra.net/m...1_20092016.pdf ). While these may only be persuasive cases and therefore not binding, the Judge will take note of them and the fact that you've raised the issue.

    The Judge can rule (if they want to) that even the tea boy can be heard, but don't let that put you off.

    Do not be afraid of upsetting their 'advocate', if you can make them lose their temper (or cry) without losing yours, all the better. Stay calm whatever happens. The Judge will tell you if you're going too far and a Litigent in Person is given quite considerable leeway.

    But don't swear! No matter how much their 'advocate' tries to goad you, and they will!


    You're not using a Lay Representative, so there's no point in taking any of that as it won't be needed.

    --

    Anyway... If the Judge hasn't already thrown it out or dismissedicon it by this point...

    Rebuttle to VCS/BW Legal Witness Statement. General notes, you can reword this in any way you like.


    The claimant in this case is not the proper claimant. As can be seen in their "contract" (direct the Judge to the claimants Witness Statement, and the copy of their "Contract"). If there is a valid claimant at all it should be Excel Parking Services and not Vehicle Control Services.

    Therefore, if any contract exists at all, the Landowner gave Excel Parking Serives that contract. That contract is highly unlikely (although it cannot be proven as the claimant has not produced it) to give Excel Parking Services the right to assume the rights of the landowner and assign rights to another party.

    While both Vehicle Control Services and Excel Parking Services have the same 'controlling minds', Screenshot & print https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...98820/officers and https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...78122/officers (introduce as rebuttle evidence) they are run as completely separate companies and cannot assign rights to one another on a whim and/or without the express permission of the landowner and even then, those rights can only be rightfully assigned by the landowner themselves and as that has not been produced as part of their witness statement one can only draw the conclusion that this is because that right (by way of contract of assignment) does not exist.

    Then introduce your evidence of the landowner, Staghold Limited, and screenshot and print https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history and https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history showing that in either case at the time that this so called contract was signed between Vehicle Control Services and Excel Parking Services the actual landowner was a dormant company and therefore could not (possibly, and certainly not legally) have assigned any rights to Excel Parking Services or Vehicle Contol Services.

    Further, while dealing with the so called "contract", it is not valid now and was not valid on the day that the event that brings us here today took place. As can be seen clearly on the contract, the contract was made for a FIXED PERIOD of ONE YEAR from 19th March 2013. This means that this contract expired on or around 19th March 2014. As no renewed "contract" has been provided, again one can only assume that on the balance of probablilty, it does not exist.

    In either case, as has been shown, Vehicle Control Services are not the proper claimant therefore there can be no cause of action as Vehicle Control Services has no Locus Standi to make or bring a claim and waste the valuable time of this court. If a contract existed at all (and there was a subsequent breach) it would eaither be between myself and Excel Parking Services or myself and the landowner. Vehicle Control Services are merely a third party and do not (as they have shown themselves in their own evidence) have a valid contract in place to manage the car park.

    There is nothing said in the evidence to assert that Vehicle Control Services are acting as an agency on behalf of the actual contract holder therefore Vehicle Control Services cannot (and indeed do not claim to) have privity of contract. Dunlop Tyre Co v Selfridge [1915] AC 847, in which the action failed because although there was a contract, the plaintiffs were not a party to it and "only a person who is a party to a contract can sue on it," (per Lord Haldane).

    Both Vehicle Control Services and BW Legal know this to be the case as there have been many dismissed cases and discontinued claims (by both parties).

    Vehicle Control Services -v- Ms A. C6DP7P37 at Birmingham county courticon. Dismissed. Wrong Claimant.
    Vehicle Control Services -v- Unknown. C1DP3H5V at Birmingham County Court. Discontinued. Wrong claimant.

    As well as all of the following Discontinued claims. A8QZ6666, 3QZ53955, C8DP9D8C, C2DP0H7C, C1DP3H5V and C8DP37CH et al, all discontinued when it was pointed out to BW Legal that VCS had no right to persue the matter as they were not the rightful claimant.

    I did point this out to BW Legal but in this case they have chosen to proceed.

    This position (Vehicle Control Services being the wrong claimant) is backed up by their own evidence bundle. I refer you to photograph 10 in the claimants bundle which clearly shows a 'Car Park' sign. Although it is not particularly clear in this picture, the logo in the top right of the sign is for Excel Parking Services and not Vehicle Control Services who are making the claim in this case.


    For comparison, download and print ( http://www.terracom.gr/sites/terraco...rking-logo.png ) Excel Parking Services logo and ( http://www.vehiclecontrol.co.uk/images/vcslogo.png ) Vehicle Control Services logo, show these to the Judge so that they'll be able to see that the sign in Photo 10 is Excel and not VCS!

    Print also.. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.37...7i13312!8i6656 and https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.37...7i13312!8i6656 to show the Excel Parking signage.



    At the claimants Witness statement at 5.

    The defendants vehicle was not parked in breach of the terms and conditions as the defendant had been given permission to park in the location by one of the landholders, namely the landlord of the South Sea public house. This permission clearly overrides any distance contract offered by the claimant or anyone else and any terms and conditions displayed on any signage.

    Highlight your evidence of your booking to perform at the South Sea.


    At the claimants Witness statement at 7.

    As pointed out in my opening. Neither Vehicle Control Services or Excel Parking Services are the landowner and neither of these parties can assume rights as such. In this section of the claimants witness statement it is claimed that "The Claimant i.e. the landholder, is contracted by the landowner". As the contract evidenced by the claimant is between Vehicle Control Services and Excel Parking Services, the landowner is not mentioned. Therefore there can be no contract between the landowner and Vehicle Control Services as Excel Parking Services do not and cannot have the rights of the landowner to assign the contract to a third party.


    At the claimants Witness statement at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 (bundled together).

    The claimant seems to be somewhat confused as to the status of the car park that they claim to manage. Variously they have referred to the fact that no "Pay & Display ticket" was purchased and that the car park is for "Permit Holders Only". The car park is either one or the other, it cannot be both unless the signs show that both options are available which they do not as evidenced by the claimants evidence bundle in photograph 2.

    Regardless, as can be seen in the claimants Witness Statement at the 17th & 18th photographs, a Pay & Display ticket was quite clearly on display in the vehicle.

    This case is therefore different to the precedident set in the Supreme Court of parkingeyeicon and Beavis in that this parking chargeicon can only be a penalty, the Private parking company having already received the benefit via the payment received for the Pay & Display ticket.


    At the claimants Witness statement at 16, 17 & 18 (bundled together).

    As highlighted in my opening statement, the claimant is relying on a contract that has no standing and is, in any case, expired.


    At the claimants Witness statement at 19 & 20 (bundled together).

    The signs are meaningless as the claimant does not have a valid contract to manage the car park.





    Now, reworded slightly from your original, I would send the following to BW Illegal.



    BW Legal

    Ref. Claim No: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX In the XXXXXXXXXXXXX County Court.


    The landowners contract if it exists at all is between Staghold Ltd and Excel Parking Limited and therefore Vehicle Control Services have no locus standi.

    As a gesture of goodwill, I am prepared to give you one final oportunity to discontinue this case.

    If you fail to discontinue I will be asking for my full costs under the provisions of CPR 27.14(2)(g). This will include, but will not be limited to my full time spent on this matter at the litigant in person rate of 19/hour.

    I will also be left with no alternative but to draw the courts attention to your clients (and thereby subequent to that, your) attempts to deceive the court. SRA Handbook, version 18 (Nov 2016), Chapter 5. O(5.1) & O(5.2). I remind you at this point of your overriding duty to the court. This will also result in a formal complaint regarding your conduct to the Solicitors Regulation Authority.

    I refer you to the following blog posts, which confirm you are well aware of this matter from other cases.
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...ose-wrong.html
    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co...scontinue.html

    I will make the court aware of these blog posts should you proceed to a hearing, as well as these cases which you are also fully aware of.

    Discontinued cases...
    VCS v Zozulya A8QZ6666
    VCS v Ms M 3QZ53955
    VCS v Ms O C8DP9D8C
    VCS v Mr H C2DP0H7C
    VCS v Mr W C1DP3H5V

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    Default

    Wow , thanks for that I will read it through again tonight on the computer anc print of the links

    Thznks


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    Default Re: VCS/BW Claimform OLD PUB CAR PARK SOUTH SEA LIVE, 3 Spooner Street, Sheffield

    well put DF,

    The assignment of management contracts can happen
    but they have offered no evidence of the original contract
    so no evidence that any of them can operate there nor that the missing contract allows the assignment of their obligations to a third party.

    Dont forget,
    these bandits tell people thay are MANAGING the parking there
    although in practice that is purely chiselling motorists


    there are obligations to the landowner who signed them up
    I would bet that no permission has been allowed for them to abrogate their responsibilities to a third party.

    Imagine the scenario.
    You ask to borrow my lawnmower, I say yes.
    You then lend my lawnmower to Fred, next door but one and charge him for using it.


    Fred then claims he can rent it out to Jim across the road because he says that you said he could but offer no evidence of this agreement nor having any right to even be touching it, let alone renting it to others.


    Same sort of thing here VCS is Fred so what rights do VCS have without a paper trail that they cannot provide..

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  20. #100
    Basic Account Holder Twinney Novitiate



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    Cagger since : Jul 2016
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    Just got out of court, VCS sent a Solicitor .

    The judge asked us both to just answer yes or no as he read the main points rather than read any statements.

    He pulled VCS up on the fact that the vcs contact was out dated, with excel and not stag hold and missing the 2nd page showing a plan of the area.

    The solicitor tried to jump in but the judge reminded him rather sharply that it was just yes or no.

    The judge then said that the claim would be dropped as there was no contract with the land owner.


    I WON !!!!!!!!!!!!!


    ��

    Thanks to everyone on the forum. Without you I wouldn't have stood a chance. THANKYOU !



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