Myself and wife have a number of long standing liability orders outstanding with our local authority in relation to council tax.

These mainly come about due to our sons illness and our own subsequent illness from a car accident 6 years ago. We have never refused to pay, but cannot in anyway afford to pay the ridiculous amounts our authority is asking.

To further complicate this my wife has made two attempts on her life in the last 9 months, I believe if this goes to Bailiffs I am fearful she will finally carry out what she has attempted over the last 9 months. Her GPS and Psychologist are aware of her mental fragility.

We have been trying without success to get our local authority to deduct these liability orders from our benefits, however they refuse to even when considering my wife's vulnerability.

My question is there any way of getting these liability orders back to a judge so he can make the decision to attach to our benefits. We need these attaching to our benefits so I can assist my wife getting the mental treatment she requires without the stress of her wanting to end her life when Bailiffs turn up.

Trust me when I say we have tried everything over the past two years, even the Local Government Ombudsman ruled in our favour two years ago. So what did the council do absolutely nothing for 20 months only to start their abusive process again in the last 2 weeks.

I think the court is the only body able to bring this matter to a close.

If the Ombudsman has ruled in your favour, and the council has ignored their ruling, I think you should go back to the Ombudsman. This has happened to me --- although the whole matter was supposed to be closed, the harassment has continued (from Scottish Power in my case), and the Ombudsman has been quite willing to take up my case again. Just send them the details of the old case (ref. number, etc.).

I do hope they can help, and I wouldn't go to court (further expense?) unless the Ombudsman says they can do nothing further.

This Ombudsman has said I have to complain again to the council, it's seems the council cleverly waited for the Ombudsman to drop off the radar knowing full well I'd have to go though the complaints process again.... I have to go through all 3 stages of the complaints procedure or until 12 weeks have elapsed....

Myself and wife have a number of long standing liability orders outstanding with our local authority in relation to council tax.

 

My question is there any way of getting these liability orders back to a judge so he can make the decision to attach to our benefits. We need these attaching to our benefits so I can assist my wife getting the mental treatment she requires without the stress of her wanting to end her life when Bailiffs turn up..

From your question, it would seem that there are quite a few Liability Orders and they go back quite some time (at least 6 years from when you had a car accident).

It does concern me that the council appear to have ignored a decision from the Local Government Ombudsman. It is almost unheard of for a local authority to do this.

Unfortunately, with Liability Orders, a Judge cannot make a decision regarding the 'method' of enforcement (i.e attachment to benefits). Such a decision is for the local authority.

Given your wife's obvious 'vulnerability', I would be very shocked if the council sought to enforce these debts via bailiffs. Have the council received documentary evidence regarding your wife's mental state?

Think I would be asking my local Councillor to have a look at this.

Definitey involve your local member, they should be available 7 days a week until 9 pm and show them the Ombudsman's ruling. What council and bailiffs are they? I wonder if this council has a Capita infestation, this is the sort of stunt Capita would pull if they infest a councils Revenue department with responsibility for Council Tax.

I know we are guessing but it does smell of Capita

I think you have hit the nail on the head BN.

Zoltron I feel for you my wife tried the same may be a doctors letter to the council over her vulnerable situation

but sent to the head of revenues may help

leakie

The council involved are Sandwell MBC and are using Bristow and Suitor. We have spoken to our local councilor and to be honest she's having no more luck than myself. I have complained to the council again via e-mail as requested by the LGO and the response I got from a senior member of staff is 'my complaint won't go very far as the council believe they haven't done anything wrong'. And that conversation was recorded on my mobile phone which I am currently transcribing due to the sheer ignorance of the member staff I spoke with, to be honest he expressed his uttermost discontent when I told him the call had been recorded.

My wife's GP has given me a letter to hand to both the council and any enforment agent who turns up explaining my wife's mental state of mind and potential suicide risk also explaining the previous attempts of trying to take her own life. Sandwell council have been informed over the past 6 months and in the previous 24 months my wife's health and fragile state of mind.

To be honest these liability orders were being taken from our salaries before our car accident, but stupidly the council were clearing newer liability orders before clearing older ones which I feel is unfair.

While my complaint is ongoing can the council continue to threaten the use of bailiffs? There is nothing outside an agent can take as all the garden furniture has been packed away and my vehicle is leased from Motability so no problems with that.

 

My wife's GP has given me a letter to hand to both the council and any enforment agent who turns up explaining my wife's mental state of mind and potential suicide risk also explaining the previous attempts of trying to take her own life. Sandwell council have been informed over the past 6 months and in the previous 24 months my wife's health and fragile state of mind.

 

To be honest these liability orders were being taken from our salaries before our car accident, but stupidly the council were clearing newer liability orders before clearing older ones which I feel is unfair.

 

While my complaint is ongoing can the council continue to threaten the use of bailiffs? There is nothing outside an agent can take as all the garden furniture has been packed away and my vehicle is leased from Motability so no problems with that.

You said in your initial post that you had a car accident 6 years ago. If it is the case that these liability orders were being deducted from your salary before the accident, I can only assume that the debts outstanding must be very old indeed. Im I correct?

When a deduction is made from salary, then unless you specifically state which account the deductions should apply to, they will be allocated to the newer account first.

A vehicle provided by Motability is exempt from being taken. Therefore the car is secure. In fact, most ordinary household items are also exempt. You are not under any obligation to allow an enforcement agent into your home and given your wife's fragile mental state, you should simply refuse.

Are you working?

Have you put together a Income & Expenditure?

Have you had an initial Notice of Enforcement from Bristow & Sutor? If so, have you offered a payment proposal?

Has B & S visited your property?

Have you provided B & S with a copy of the letter from your wife's doctor?

How much do you owe against all these Liability Orders?

Are you paying this years council tax (2016/7).

I am sorry for asking so many question but they are important.

I should have mentioned above that if Bristow & Sutor are made aware of your wife's health, I would fully expect them to manage the accounts within their own Welfare Department. This would avoid bailiffs making personal visits to your property.

 

When a deduction is made from salary, then unless you specifically state which account the deductions should apply to, they will be allocated to the newer account first.

 

I am sorry for asking so many question but they are important.

I'm not sure the part italicised is correct, though as always I'm happy to be proven wrong.

My understanding is the Liability Order allows a council to issue an Attachment of Earnings Order where a payment arrangement has either not been made, or not adhered to. The LO would, of course, be for a specific year, so the AOE would similarly be for that year. The council is allowed to have two AOE's running at any one time, so these would obviously be for separate years.

I've put a link below which gives some useful information on them for both yourself and the OP.

http://www.northampton.gov.uk/info/200028/council-tax/996/council-tax-attachment-of-earnings

You are indeed correct these debts are very old, some date back to 2003.

We have asked the council to attach these to our benefits so we don't have to worry about having to pay them, they just get taken. My pain problem is when my wife takes a turn for the worst every thing else has to come second, and while she's in hospital that in itself causes extra expense which will put a strain on any arrangement I can make.

I need an arrangement in place which I know is going to be steady and not change without warning and is not going to be put at risk when my wife health worsens and she has to go into hospital for mental therapy.

I know it may be frowned on by not willing to negotiate with bailiffs, but in past experience no bailiff has ever been understanding to my wife's attempted suicide, I simply can't allow her to become distressed.

The reason why I ask if a magistrate can decide, as who decides if a committal to prison is relevant. Surely that decision is under took by a magistrate to commit or not. Surely they must be able to frown upon the local authority for not even attempting to make a attachment to benefits.

We have provided also income and expenditure to the council who questioned some red flags on our spending, mainly our food bill, which is almost double what the council were expecting. Our problem is because we are both disabled to varying degrees we depend much on ready and pre-prepared meals which are more expensive, this isn't through choice it dictated by our personal needs, for one main reason I suffer from coeliac disease and gluten free pre-prepared meals are highly expensive, the council fails to simply realise this.

I'm not sure the part italicised is correct, though as always I'm happy to be proven wrong.

 

The LO would, of course, be for a specific year, so the AOE would similarly be for that year.

 

The council is allowed to have two AOE's running at any one time.

 

In my post number 9, I stated that the Attachment of Earnings had been attempted over 6 years ago. Accordingly, any reference to AOE's is not really relevant to this OP's present situation.

Yes CD, I made an error in my earlier post by stating that when a deduction is made from salary, that unless you specifically state which account the deductions should apply to, they will be allocated to the newer account first.

My comment was very quickly picked up on another forum and within just one hour, their reply has been copied by you in your above post. Please try to avoid basing your replies on comments made on other forums. I have sent copies to the moderating team.

Perhaps we can now concentrate on all the other points that I raised in post 9 (copied below)

 

The reason why I ask if a magistrate can decide, as who decides if a committal to prison is relevant. Surely that decision is under took by a magistrate to commit or not. Surely they must be able to frown upon the local authority for not even attempting to make a attachment to benefits.

Please put any thoughts about committal out of your mind. As long as you are seen to be offering to repay these debts, committal cannot be considered.

There must be a good reason why the council are unwilling to make an attachment against benefits. Have they explained why?

Could you answer the questions that I raised in my post number 9 (copied below):

Committal only happens if you stand in front of a judge and tell them you'll never pay it.

Off topic posts unapproved...please remember this is someone's thread requiring assistance...

Regards

Andy

Thread now locked.....‎ zoltron please PM Site Team when you are ready to resume.

Thread now open.

Andy

Do you have an update Zoltron?

To answer the questions previously asked.....

Q1. Are you working?

A1. No we were both injured in differing ways in the car accident, my wife suffered neurological injuries, she also suffers from focal dystonia of the hands and fybromyalgia. I suffered lower back trauma which required a laminectomy, discectomy and foraminotomy at levels L3/L4, L4/L5 and L5/S1. I suffer from severe sciatic pain due to nerve root trauma and use Fentynyl, Amitriptyline and Pregabalin to help with the neuropathic pain. I also suffer coeliac disease.

Q2. Have you put together a Income & Expenditure?

A2. Yes this was done by Citizens Advice Bureau, which highlighted some red flags due to excessive amounts spent on food and shopping. Our food bill is higher as we have to spend extra on pre-prepared foods, ready meals and gluten free foods due to my coeliac disease. The council have been made aware in a letter from our GP about our dependence on ready meals and my coeliac disease.

Q3. Have you had an initial Notice of Enforcement from Bristow & Sutor? If so, have you offered a payment proposal?

A3. Not yet but we had previous dealing with B & S when the Ombudsman last got involved, they were unwilling to help and wanted the balance settled in 6 months, which is impossible. We offered attachment to out benefits last time but they refused, after us ignoring them for 6 weeks the debt was returned to the council. We're basically back to a 14 day notice.

Q4. Has B & S visited your property?

A4. Not yet, the Ombudsman has told us we don't have to and shouldn't let them in if they turn up.

Q5. Have you provided B & S with a copy of the letter from your wife's doctor?

A5. The letter has been sent to the council, so they can't say they haven't been made aware.

Q6. How much do you owe against all these Liability Orders?

A6. Almost £3500.00

Q7. Are you paying this years council tax (2016/7)

A7. Nothing is owed this year, we receive full CT benefit.

The council agreed to deduct from benefits when the Ombudsman last got involved, however we believe to many people were involved in handling our case at the council and it appears in the confusion someone over ruled someone else and the agreement went up in the air, hence why we are back to square one 18 months later.

A very good friend has recently suggested bankruptcy or a DRO, and has offered to fund the double bankruptcy. But to be honest I would rather pay what is owed. It just seems the council would rather cut off their nose to spite their face.

Our excess income each month is just under £40.00 from the income and expenditure, I realise this will take 10 years to pay back. But surely this is better than a bankruptcy as we have no disposable assets.

Zoltron,

Thank you for updating the forum. I will read through your above post later this afternoon and will post a reply.

Very interesting reading indeed Zoltron, thank you. It's interesting the account was returned so swiftly (within 3-4 months) given we were told yesterday that companies are holding onto accounts for much longer now - it would appear in your case this was not so.

On a quick read, it seems the council have handled your case appallingly. However, I'll have a really good read back through your thread later on, and will post a reply.

To answer the questions previously asked.....

 

Q3. Have you had an initial Notice of Enforcement from Bristow & Sutor? If so, have you offered a payment proposal?

 

A3. Not yet but we had previous dealing with B & S when the Ombudsman last got involved, they were unwilling to help and wanted the balance settled in 6 months, which is impossible. We offered attachment to out benefits last time but they refused, after us ignoring them for 6 weeks the debt was returned to the council. We're basically back to a 14 day notice.

Zoltron,

Thank you for providing such a detailed response to my earlier questions. It is clear to me that both you and your wife are 'vulnerable'.

When was the last time that any of the accounts were with Bristow & Sutor?

The '14' day letter that you have received is presumably from the local authority.

Given that the council now have a recent Income & Expeniture and correspondence from your wife's GP, I would be surprised if they passed the accounts onto an enforcement company. However, as all enforcement companies have trained Welfare Departments, it may well be, that the council consider that the Welfare Dept is best placed to monitor a payment arrangment.

It is probably best to wait a week or so to see what steps the council intends taking.

Hi Zoltron,

I'm sorry I've been a while responding as I've been busy elsewhere. It will come as no surprise to anyone who knows me to read I believe the council should deal with this. They appear to be the ones who have messed things up; they are the ones who have ignored the decision of the ombudsman. If they were to increase your indebtedness by passing the account to Bristow and Sutor, or any other enforcement company, it would simply be wrong.

The council should reinstate the attachment of benefits, or oversee a repayment plan themselves. If they are passing the account to an enforcement company simply because their welfare department could oversee repayments more easily, they should pay any fees due, not you.

Zoltron,

 

Thank you for providing such a detailed response to my earlier questions. It is clear to me that both you and your wife are 'vulnerable'.

 

When was the last time that any of the accounts were with Bristow & Sutor?

 

The '14' day letter that you have received is presumably from the local authority.

 

Given that the council now have a recent Income & Expeniture and correspondence from your wife's GP, I would be surprised if they passed the accounts onto an enforcement company. However, as all enforcement companies have trained Welfare Departments, it may well be, that the council consider that the Welfare Dept is best placed to monitor a payment arrangment.

 

It is probably best to wait a week or so to see what steps the council intends taking.

Excellant post BA