Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
Success! Just had my charges refunded for a missed direct debit (£35). My advice is to stay calm and be persistent. If you are refused just ask to speak to the next person up the line. Eventually you will get some common sense as these charges are completely indefensible. They are a penalty and do not reflect the actual cost to the banks as has been stated before.
If you spend a lot of time getting there ask for your time to be refunded too. I know somone who worked out how long he had spent writing letters and on the phone to sort things out and charged them pro rata his daily rate. The bank paid up. Remember it works both ways. Your time is just as valuable as the banks!
One other thing has anyone noticed that the Abbey call centres are now based in India and therefore it takes twice as long to sort anything out.
Success! Just had my charges refunded for a missed direct debit (£35). My advice is to stay calm and be persistent. If you are refused just ask to speak to the next person up the line. Eventually you will get some common sense as these charges are completely indefensible. They are a penalty and do not reflect the actual cost to the banks as has been stated before.
If you spend a lot of time getting there ask for your time to be refunded too. I know somone who worked out how long he had spent writing letters and on the phone to sort things out and charged them pro rata his daily rate. The bank paid up. Remember it works both ways. Your time is just as valuable as the banks!
One other thing has anyone noticed that the Abbey call centres are now based in India and therefore it takes twice as long to sort anything out.
Well done. Good advice.
I would just like to qualify it by saying that one should be careful not to get sucked into the Bank's own channels of complaint. This is frsstrating. It means waiting for their deadlines to expire, having to progress on to their next step in their own process.
It is important to express your equality with their process. Set your own reasonable deadlines. Set your own pace. Insist that responses be given in what you consider is a reasonable time - typically 2 or 3 days. Not the 5 or 8 weeks which the banks say that you must accept. If the bank says that it is not their policy to do it this way, then you explain that it is not your policy to do it any other way. If they refuse then let them know that they are merely forcing the issue into court a little more quickly than it would otherwise do.
As Paul1207 says, work your way up the line, but take names. Get telephone numbers. Don't accept promises to phone you back. Keep the initiative. Always say that you will call them back. Tell them at what time you will call them back. This way you are never kept waiting not knowing whether they have forgotten or they are not going to or what.
Charging for your time is an excellent idea. The court rate for a lay representative is currently £9.75 an hour. It is cheap at the price and tell the bank that this is your rate - alhtough I have generally asked for £50 or so as a minimum.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
Well done. Good advice.
I would just like to qualify it by saying that one should be careful not to get sucked into the Bank's own channels of complaint. This is frsstrating. It means waiting for their deadlines to expire, having to progress on to their next step in their own process.
It is important to express your equality with their process. Set your own reasonable deadlines. Set your own pace. Insist that responses be given in what you consider is a reasonable time - typically 2 or 3 days. Not the 5 or 8 weeks which the banks say that you must accept. If the bank says that it is not their policy to do it this way, then you explain that it is not your policy to do it any other way. If they refuse then let them know that they are merely forcing the issue into court a little more quickly than it would otherwise do.
As Paul1207 says, work your way up the line, but take names. Get telephone numbers. Don't accept promises to phone you back. Keep the initiative. Always say that you will call them back. Tell them at what time you will call them back. This way you are never kept waiting not knowing whether they have forgotten or they are not going to or what.
Charging for your time is an excellent idea. The court rate for a lay representative is currently £9.75 an hour. It is cheap at the price and tell the bank that this is your rate - alhtough I have generally asked for £50 or so as a minimum.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
I am just preparing my case against Abbey thanks for the advice, Stephen has also agreed to give me some help in this matter so I feel better prepared.
I am sorting out my Lloyds bank account today as I expect (correct me please if I am wrong) that Abbey will close my account during these proceedings?
Already this has cost many hours of my time I like your style with charging for your time, although if everything proceeds at a reasonable pace I am happy with my money from the charges back (so far I've worked it out to be £388 and that is with an 18 month gap in my statements which I shredded in shame at the time.)
I am just preparing my case against Abbey thanks for the advice, Stephen has also agreed to give me some help in this matter so I feel better prepared.
I am sorting out my Lloyds bank account today as I expect (correct me please if I am wrong) that Abbey will close my account during these proceedings?
Already this has cost many hours of my time I like your style with charging for your time, although if everything proceeds at a reasonable pace I am happy with my money from the charges back (so far I've worked it out to be £388 and that is with an 18 month gap in my statements which I shredded in shame at the time.)
Don't forget to get the interest they charges you as well
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
Don't forget to get the interest they charges you as well
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
In the letter I lifted from this site it says about 8% so it would be £388, plus whatever was charged in the missing months, plus the 8% quoted. I don't know exactly how much was charged in those months but it was a significant amount if I remember that period correctly.
In the letter I lifted from this site it says about 8% so it would be £388, plus whatever was charged in the missing months, plus the 8% quoted. I don't know exactly how much was charged in those months but it was a significant amount if I remember that period correctly.
I need to have a look at that letter - but anyway, you want to recover your charges plus any interest they charges you on those charges if they put you into overdraft. Then, if you have to go to court, you will claim 8% on top of that.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
I need to have a look at that letter - but anyway, you want to recover your charges plus any interest they charges you on those charges if they put you into overdraft. Then, if you have to go to court, you will claim 8% on top of that.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
Charging for your time is an excellent idea. The court rate for a lay representative is currently £9.75 an hour. It is cheap at the price and tell the bank that this is your rate - alhtough I have generally asked for £50 or so as a minimum.
Surely that's a penalty payment - expect the bank to take you to court for a refund
Charging for your time is an excellent idea. The court rate for a lay representative is currently £9.75 an hour. It is cheap at the price and tell the bank that this is your rate - alhtough I have generally asked for £50 or so as a minimum.
Surely that's a penalty payment - expect the bank to take you to court for a refund
This is the letter so far. I have basically used exactly the same letter as the template which I assume most people did? If not let me know and I will draft something myself:
Code:
Abbey National House
2 Triton Square
Regent's Place
London
NW1 3AN
Dear Sir/Madam,
Current Account number: MY NUMBER!
I have held the above mentioned current account with your bank for over 5 years. During this time I have incurred charges for exceeding my overdraft limit due to cheques being cleared at unfortunate times, unauthorized overdraft fees, direct debits and standing orders being dishonoured (and in some cases honoured) due to insufficient funds.
It is my opinion, and that of the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), that these charges are punitive in nature, not a genuine pre-estimate of cost and not intended to re-reimburse your losses for a breach of contract occurring. Further to the 1999 Consumer Credit Regulations quoted by the OFT, there are numerous cases in law that prove that punitive charges in contracts are unenforceable at English law.
Murray v Leisureplay (2004)
Dunlop Tyre Company v New Garage and Motor Co. (1915)
Bridge v Campbell Discount Co. Ltd. (1962)
Additionally your charges are a direct breach of the Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977 which require that contract terms be reasonable. I do not believe these charges are reasonable as outlined in the aforementioned Act.
Accordingly I request that you return to me ALL charges made on this account in the last 5 years by way of personal cheque within 7 days of receipt of this letter. If you choose not to do so, I will start proceedings for recovery in the County Courts, as I believe that legally I am entitled to this money back. By doing so, you will be liable for my court costs and for an extra 8% APR as permitted under the County Courts Act (1984).
Alternatively if you decide NOT to accept my suggestion for settlement of this issue, I wish to make a formal request under the Data Protection Act for a complete and exhaustive list of all charges made on this account over the last 5 years. As you are no doubt aware, you are afforded 40 days to comply or else request an extension from the Information Commissioner. If you are of any doubt that this information is covered by the Act, then I draw your attention to the case of Durant v FSA 2003 where the Court held that bank statement information is indeed personal information for the purposes of the DPA. In any event, this information is requested with a view to prospective legal action on my part and therefore would be covered under the same Act.
Please treat this letter as my formal DPA request.
Yours faithfully,
ME!.
Edit: Noticed the re-reimburse on the letter. Has been modified on the original.
This is the letter so far. I have basically used exactly the same letter as the template which I assume most people did? If not let me know and I will draft something myself:
Code:
Abbey National House
2 Triton Square
Regent's Place
London
NW1 3AN
Dear Sir/Madam,
Current Account number: MY NUMBER!
I have held the above mentioned current account with your bank for over 5 years. During this time I have incurred charges for exceeding my overdraft limit due to cheques being cleared at unfortunate times, unauthorized overdraft fees, direct debits and standing orders being dishonoured (and in some cases honoured) due to insufficient funds.
It is my opinion, and that of the Office of Fair Trading (OFT), that these charges are punitive in nature, not a genuine pre-estimate of cost and not intended to re-reimburse your losses for a breach of contract occurring. Further to the 1999 Consumer Credit Regulations quoted by the OFT, there are numerous cases in law that prove that punitive charges in contracts are unenforceable at English law.
Murray v Leisureplay (2004)
Dunlop Tyre Company v New Garage and Motor Co. (1915)
Bridge v Campbell Discount Co. Ltd. (1962)
Additionally your charges are a direct breach of the Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977 which require that contract terms be reasonable. I do not believe these charges are reasonable as outlined in the aforementioned Act.
Accordingly I request that you return to me ALL charges made on this account in the last 5 years by way of personal cheque within 7 days of receipt of this letter. If you choose not to do so, I will start proceedings for recovery in the County Courts, as I believe that legally I am entitled to this money back. By doing so, you will be liable for my court costs and for an extra 8% APR as permitted under the County Courts Act (1984).
Alternatively if you decide NOT to accept my suggestion for settlement of this issue, I wish to make a formal request under the Data Protection Act for a complete and exhaustive list of all charges made on this account over the last 5 years. As you are no doubt aware, you are afforded 40 days to comply or else request an extension from the Information Commissioner. If you are of any doubt that this information is covered by the Act, then I draw your attention to the case of Durant v FSA 2003 where the Court held that bank statement information is indeed personal information for the purposes of the DPA. In any event, this information is requested with a view to prospective legal action on my part and therefore would be covered under the same Act.
Please treat this letter as my formal DPA request.
Yours faithfully,
ME!.
Edit: Noticed the re-reimburse on the letter. Has been modified on the original.
Ok. I think that the letter misses out an element of reclaimable value. Sorry, it's our fault. After the figure for charges you could add a figure for interest which they have charged you - if the charges have resulted in you being charged overdraft interest. If they haven't then you can't.
However this makes it complicated to calculate. So, you can either calculate the overdraft interest which you have paid over the years and say
"plus £xx.xx interest at 16% (whatever the overdraft rate or higher rate is) which you have charged me on the overdraft value of the charges which I am claiming"
or you can simply say that if they do not pay you your charges then your claim in the county court will be for the charges plus the interest they have charged on the overdraft value of this sum plus the County Court rate of 8% on the total plus your fixed costs.
In other words you are using the overdraft interest as a bit of a bargaining counter.
Frankly they won't give a stuff It's all your money and I would claim it all now or in court, it's up to them whether they want to do it the easy way of the hard way.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
Ok. I think that the letter misses out an element of reclaimable value. Sorry, it's our fault. After the figure for charges you could add a figure for interest which they have charged you - if the charges have resulted in you being charged overdraft interest. If they haven't then you can't.
However this makes it complicated to calculate. So, you can either calculate the overdraft interest which you have paid over the years and say
"plus £xx.xx interest at 16% (whatever the overdraft rate or higher rate is) which you have charged me on the overdraft value of the charges which I am claiming"
or you can simply say that if they do not pay you your charges then your claim in the county court will be for the charges plus the interest they have charged on the overdraft value of this sum plus the County Court rate of 8% on the total plus your fixed costs.
In other words you are using the overdraft interest as a bit of a bargaining counter.
Frankly they won't give a stuff It's all your money and I would claim it all now or in court, it's up to them whether they want to do it the easy way of the hard way.
Please don't pm me about specific questions unless you have posted and it has not been dealt with or unless the matter is confidential. Please include a link to the post you want me to look at. If you have received a defence, contact me.
Advice & opinions of BankFodder, The Consumer Action Group and The Bank Action Group are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Use your own judgment. Seek advice of a qualified insured professional if you have any doubts.
I unfortunately only know of £388, there is a period where I don't know what was charged so I could either put £388 plus interest etc. and call it a day or wait for my list of charges over the entire 5 year period under the DPA request.
The only reason I have an overdraft is thanks to this whole messy business with Abbey (and CapitalOne but one thing at a time for me I think) so there are overdraft interest costs involved.
I unfortunately only know of £388, there is a period where I don't know what was charged so I could either put £388 plus interest etc. and call it a day or wait for my list of charges over the entire 5 year period under the DPA request.
The only reason I have an overdraft is thanks to this whole messy business with Abbey (and CapitalOne but one thing at a time for me I think) so there are overdraft interest costs involved.
Charges refunded
(£35). My advice is to stay calm and be persistent. If you are refused just ask to speak to the next person up the line. Eventually you will get some common sense as these charges are completely indefensible. They are a penalty and do not reflect the actual cost to the banks as has been stated before.
Originally Posted by BankFodder
