Hi All,

I've read lots of info on here but nothing that helps me for my specific case.

I hope someone can throw their tuppance in!

I have just found out that I have a CCJ in my name for a bill that I am not liable for.

First thing I knew about it was when I checked my credit history.

I am very distressed that this is on my credit history because I was hoping to get a mortgage

in the next few months and this has completely messed up my credit score!

The water bill at a place I now no longer live at is in arrears.

I lived in the property as joint tenants with some friends from November 2013- March 2014.

I moved out and they stayed on,

amending the tenancy agreement and all the bills accordingly.

I have loads of documents to demonstrate I moved out

(council tax bill, tenancy agreements etc)

the other tenants kept telling them I didn't live there

but the water company refuse to change their records retrospectively.

They quote a law which says we should have given 2 days notice which we did

but it just wasn't recorded on their system.

It's my word against theirs essentially.

I had never received a summons or case judgement.

Part of the money owed £85 was sent to a Debt Collection Agency and I've squared it with them.

The DCA accept that I don't live there and put it on hold whilst they go back to the water company).

However, I still have £600 debt in my name and this CCJ on my file.

The other tenants maintain they didn't know about any of this

but I can't 100% trust them on that.

They said no post has come in my name but they didn't tell me my name was on the water bills

they couldn't pay so I'm not convinced.

However, the court document I got lists my recent address,

and I assume they got this from the Electoral Roll,

yet nothing turned up there either.

Things I have done so far:

• Scanned in Council Tax Bills and sent to water company

(I've been told they won't take them into consideration).

• Telephoned the water company to ask why the CCJ was issued in October 2015 in my name only.

It was explained that they don't do joint claims and couldn't tell me why just that

"it was policy to use the first name on the account"

even though they had been dealing with the other names on the account.

They told me that the other tenants had set up a payment plan which they missed a payment on,

ignored the water companies calls and letters so the water company started court proceedings.

• Written to the water company asking for copies of all correspondence.

I plan to do a SAR/Data Protection request too.

I have no idea of the exact dates, what payments have been made and when etc

• Written to the court and asked for more info.

I was told that the "claim pack cannot be reproduced"

and they emailed me a scanned document with some basic details of the case.

Not entirely sure what this document is but it lists the breakdown of costs and addresses of both parties.

Anything else I should do?

I know I need to get the application to Set Aside in ASAP

but my partner is worried we'll lose and end up paying more money.

I've explained that even if we pay it off it will still be on my history so I really need to fight it.

Hi redtrifolium and Welcome to CAG

Date of the judgment is 23rd October 2015

https://www.dwrcymru.com/_library/leaflets_publications_english/cop_unpaid_charges.pdf

I will move your thread to the appropriate forum.

Regards

Andy

Which water company are you talking about?

I understand that the alleged debt concerns a period during which you were not living at the address. Is that correct?

You should contact the court and asked them for a copy of all the papers. They should be able to supply this to you by email. You want a copy of the claim form and a copy of the judgement.

You say that you have a copy of some kind of court document already. Please will you scan it and post it up here in PDF format.

Please follow the instructions under the link – set aside.

You should have done an SAR already. Do it now. It takes 40 days – which is far too long – so you should get it underway as quickly as possible.

Do not pay the SAR fee by postal order. Pay by cheque so that you are able to monitor whether or not it gets cashed.

If it is clear that you have not receive the papers and also if it is clear that the CC J refers to a period when you are not of the property, then you will absolutely succeed in your set-aside.

When you get the N244 form, we will help you fill it in.

Make sure that you asked for the costs of the application to be awarded in your favour.

Also I see that you have been trying to deal with the water company on the telephone. Of course, you have not taken any recording so you have got no evidence of what they have said. This is a huge mistake. Read our customer services guide and follow the advice there and record your calls.

With a call recorder working , make sure that you call the water company again and get them to say on the phone that they have simply sued you because you are the first name. This will be helpful to you.

Thanks for the info on what to be getting on with! I have more confidence I can fight this with this sort of support My FIL used to work at CAB so he has been helpful but setting aside CCJs isn't something he dealt with much and a lot has changed in the last few years.

The dates quoted on the phone are from when the account opened November 2013 till now. I was giving my friend money for the bills in the period I lived there but I assume she didn't actually pay the water bill... that I can sort out with her but from March 2014 till now, I am not liable.

I'll do the SAR today. The water company is Welsh Water. I've found the details on their website to make the request.

I have the N244 to fill out but getting the money for the application will have to wait till Friday (payday) as my partner works and we are just over the thresholds for fee remittance

How do I upload a document?

This is what the court emailed me.

I've blocked out my name and address.

The registered address is the one where the water bill is

and the defendant address is the one I was living at when the CCJ was going through.

I didn't get any post about this whilst I was living there.

courtdocument.pdf

Actually, I could have predicted that it was Welsh Water.

They seem to be particularly aggressive. Search this forum and you will find other people also having problems with Welsh Water

Also, the chronology of your situation is not at all clear.

We need to know very clearly – in bullet pointed chronological format,

• the dates that you were at the property
  
• the dates for which they are claiming
  
• the dates for which you accept liability
  
• the amount for which you accept liability
  
• the dates and the amounts for which you do not accept liability
  
• who is it who should be held liable
  

If the principal objective of all of this is for you to get rid of the CCJ, then it may be in your best interest to apply for the set-aside – and assuming you get it then to pay off the entire bill quickly so that at least there is no further dispute and no risk of any further action and a new CCJ being applied.

After that, you can make your decision as to whether or not to sue Welsh Water for the return of money which you didn't owe them all to take some action against your old flatmates.

I'm sorry if it's not clear. As I haven't got much info myself it's not that clear to me either since I don't have all the paperwork. They are basically saying, as far as they are concerned, I still live there and as of 24th March 2016 they hadn't officially recorded me on their system as not living there so they feel they can chase me.

the dates that you were at the property November 2013- March 2014

the dates for which they are claiming November 2013 - ?? They have only put me as moved out as of 24th March 2016! The court document says the CCJ covers May 2015. They will probably chase me for the rest of it at some point.

the dates for which you accept liability November 2013 - March 2014

the amount for which you accept liability No idea as do not have any bills to refer to. I thought my housemate was paying it.

the dates and the amounts for which you do not accept liability As above.

who is it who should be held liable My ex-housemates because they still live there.

Have you evidence that the water company was told either by you or by the others that you were no longer the account holder?

Are the others prepared to pay the amount of money due for the period for which you were no longer there?

Weren't they receiving water bills at that address? What did they think was happening if they knew they weren't being paid?

I can tell you that the amounts of problems which are caused by people when they have these informal arrangements when they try to rely on their housemates but actually nobody really wants to put their hands up, is dreadful.

We do not have any physical evidence that I know of.

I have checked my emails from March 2014 and do not have any receipts from their online form.

SAR request is in the post now, so maybe something will be in that?

I moved to another Welsh Water property

and paid an account there but they won't take that as evidence.

Really stupid.

The current tenants didn't tell me that my name was still on the bills

or I would of sorted this out months ago.

They had set up the payment plan for the arrears and say they weren't just ignoring the bills

but they have had a lot going on (illness, hospitalisations) so may have pushed it aside for a bit.

They say they never got any letters about court action.

Not sure if I believe them.

If the summons didn't go to my recent address then it might not have?

Seems a weird way to pursue a debt when more than one person is liable.

They are willing to pay what they owe but Welsh Water only wanting to pursue me for it is complicating matters.

Some points have suddenly dawned on me.

Firstly, I gather that you agree that you owe money from 2013 to 2014. This must mean that you have been receiving money from your housemates for water bills but you haven't paid it over. Is this correct?

Secondly, yes the water company is stupid. The problem is that they have got their judgement and so as far as they're concerned – it's job done.

Don't worry about the evidence which they will and they won't accept. If it goes to court then they court will look at it differently. Not only that, if you get your set aside then you will suddenly find that the water company will start looking at it a little bit more intelligently because it will be passed away from the grunts onto the legal department which is probably run by a better quality of grunt.

Thirdly, I think that you need to get a letter from your housemates – signed by all of them agreeing the date that you left the property and also confirming that from that date they were responsible for the water account and not you.

I expect that they will be reluctant to do this but if they start causing any problems, then you should tell them that once you get the set aside, you will be joining them as co-defendants to the claim under Part 20 Of the Civil Procedure Rules. I suggest that you keep this last piece of news under your hat until you know that they are not being cooperative.

Also, before you start getting into this conflict-oriented dialogue with them, you should do everything you can to try and get hold of their full names and their other addresses – such as their parents addresses so that if they are joined as co-defendants then you have an address to serve the documents at, in case they all suddenly decide to do a flit. You can also pass those addresses onto the water company if necessary.

Once again, protect yourself by getting hold of this information discreetly.

" because it will be passed away from the grunts onto the legal department which is probably run by a better quality of grunt. "

Some points have suddenly dawned on me.

 

Thirdly, I think that you need to get a letter from your housemates – signed by all of them agreeing the date that you left the property and also confirming that from that date they were responsible for the water account and not you.

 

I expect that they will be reluctant to do this but if they start causing any problems, then you should tell them that once you get the set aside, you will be joining them as co-defendants to the claim under Part 20 Of the Civil Procedure Rules. I suggest that you keep this last piece of news under your hat until you know that they are not being cooperative.

 

Also, before you start getting into this conflict-oriented dialogue with them, you should do everything you can to try and get hold of their full names and their other addresses – such as their parents addresses so that if they are joined as co-defendants then you have an address to serve the documents at, in case they all suddenly decide to do a flit. You can also pass those addresses onto the water company if necessary.

 

Once again, protect yourself by getting hold of this information discreetly.

My old housemates are actually still good friends of mine

and I'm sorry if I painted a picture of them not being co-operative

The only thing they have failed on was to tell me that my name was on an account that was in arrears.

They genuinely thought they had made arrangements with Welsh Water

and then Welsh Water went behind their back and started court proceedings on me.

They are willing to take responsiblity for all bills from March 2014

but Welsh Water have not been co-operative because of the Judgement.

Would the letter need to witnessed or stamped by a solicitor?

I can easily arrange either but obviously getting it stamped costs money.

What do you mean about

"you will be joining them as co-defendants to the claim under Part 20 Of the Civil Procedureicon Rules."

I didn't really understand this bit?

Also, regarding the bill arrangements.

I was paying an amount of money to my housemate for rent and bills then they were coming out of her account.

I have bank statements with me transferring her the money.

As I don't have all the paperwork I can't understand why the months I was there were not paid.

I can't get a straight answer because I'm not sure she really understands either.

She has mental health problems and I didn't realise how much of a mess they had got in with money.

I'm filling in the N244

This is what I have written but should I put it in the box for section 10 or part of it and then attach the rest as my defence?

I have read the n244 guidelines on here but I'm a bit confused.

I wish the judgment to be Set Aside as I did not receive notice of the Claim

and did not have a chance to enter a defence.

In addition I did not receive notice of the Judgment and did not have opportunity to settle the claim within the time frame that would have allowed the CJJ to not appear of my credit history.

Had I the chance to defend the Claim I would have entered a defense that I was not resident at the property from March 2014 and between the period November 2013 and March 2014 was paying money to [housemates name] towards the rent and utilities.

As Joint Tenant with [housemates name] we were Jointly and Severally Liable for all bills at the property and therefore the claim by Welsh Water should have been made jointly in both our names.

Since the court papers indicate the claimants, Welsh Water, had my current address it is the claimants fault that I did not receive the claim form or notice of judgment.

Therefore, I wish the court to award the costs of this application to myself.

Sorry to bump but really need some help here?

Please can someone take a look at my questions.

I feel time is of the essence really. TIA

Personally I don't think getting the Judgment set aside is going to be too much of a problem

it's what happens after that is when it may get tricky.

Firstly you can evidence non receipt of the claim form by producing the tenancy

from your new property along with council tax / utility bills.?

The same documents should be enough to show you have a Defence with a reasonable prospect of success

based on the fact you were not in occupation for the whole of the period of the claim.

If WW legal team are in the slightest bit competent they will know that they can only bill you for periods of occupation

as the per the legislation.

If the Judgment is set aside and you file a Defence to that end

they may choose to withdraw completly and re-issue

but by the sounds of it they don't have all the other liable parties

so they may amend the claim amount to only include the period you were liable

and continue (unless of course you provide their details to WW)

You have rightly stated that you were all jointly and severally liable

and for this reason they can continue against you solely

but obviously only for your period in occupation.

If you were to defend based on the fact other parties were also liable

you should consider bringing them into the claim using Part 20 proceedings

where they are joined as co defendants especially if you were paying a sum to one of those parties

in respect of these charges as WW would likely argue this was a 3rd party arrangement

and they were not party to it.

Of course the other option if they amend the claim amount and continue

is to pay this after set aside and the claim would be settled and there would be no Judgment

(perhaps the other parties would contribute equally to whatever amount this is??)

TBH

I am surprised WW are not trying to resolve this matter prior to your application

as they will know they cannot bill you for the period of the claim

and I would be looking for payment of the incurred charges,

probably the claim issue fee and would then look to deal with the set aside by consent

with no order as to costs but I'm not with WW.

I have submitted an application today.

It took me a while to figure out the best way to format this application

so I thought I would update this thread for other people to read.

A large part of my defence was that the particulars of claim didn't really explain what periods of time the debt related to

and whether the payment plan the current residents set up had been taken into account.

I have also never seen a water bill and have yet to see one

despite asking numerous times in the past month since I found out about this debt.

there is no way for me to determine if I actually owe the money.

They also couldn't explain why they only put my name on the claim

I argued they hadn't followed procedure in making the claim.

I had to explain all this in quite a long witness statement.

I filled in the N244 and submitted a Statement of Case instead of filling in Section 10.

There is a certain way you must format separate documents and that information is not given on this forum.

I would suggest people research for examples of these documents and amend accordingly.

There is a really good book called "Civil Litigation Handbook" which has examples of how to draft these documents.

It is available in most local libraries and some excerpts are on Google books.

• Draft Order
  
• Draft Defence
  
• Witness Statement
  
• Attach supporting exhibits
  

I sent in with my defence:

Witness Statement from my former joint tenant taking full responsibility for the debt,

council tax bills,

letter from landlord (couldn't find tenancy agreement, he'd destroyed it for some reason),

emails to/from Welsh Water showing me trying to resolve and get their consent.

If the application is successful and Welsh Water start proceedings again just in my name then I will do a part 20 claim.

I have put in my draft order that I want permission for this.

I paid for my application over the telephone and then emailed in the application.

You are not supposed to send a hard copy by post if you do this.