Hi,

Been reading this forum the past few weeks and has been incredibly useful; here's the story in summary:

took out a logbook loan last June with a company in England (I reside in Scotland and they came up to get it signed etc and took the log book).

Since then have paid most of it but since have become in dispute as changes at work re-negotiated a slightly lower amount and then they called constantly for the difference; regardless of the new agreed amount etc.

Having read this forum, I wrote to Royal Court of Justice and they have advised they have 'It is showing no record for the information you have provided me with' when I provided the car registration, make and my full address & details etc.

Where do I stand now moving forward? As I understand that if they have no record of this then it hasn't been registered and the BOS is void technically although the company still have the logbook etc and are making threats now re: repossessing the vehicle etc....

Thanks,

Jason

Hi jason, someone with more knowledge will be along soon to help.

Can you confirm first if the agreement is subject to english or scottish law, could make a difference to the help offered

Martin

Was there alsoso a credit agreement issued when the loan was taken out ?

WHO please

Hi

Here's the paperwork I have - redacted personal data and anything thta can be identifiable; any help is much appreciated.

Thanks!

bos.pdf

Hi

Must admit to being a little confused, this is not the correct form of a bill of sale loan as prescribed by the act and therfore cannot enforceable as such.

Also if it is a loan it must be accompanied by a consumer credit agreement.

Perhaps "theoldrouge" will have a look as well as it is one of his many specialities

I thought so too... the whole situation is actually my elderly fathers who got himself into a bit of a mess so I am taking care of it all for him - those 4 pages are all he was given; they don't have any offices in Scotland and visited him at his home to do this... *as dodgy as that sounds to me*

The wording is very confusing, have you redacted some of their info as well a your own ?

The form of a a bill of sale agreement is very prescriptive and cannot be binding on the transfer of title if it is not.

I only redacted their name & address & company reg number where it is listed etc so it isn't identifiable... everything else is as is...

I also redacted the car model, type & registration.

As I said, I've already called the court of justice on the details given in another thread and since had correspondence from them advising they have nothing on record.

Thanks for your help, it is really appreciated.

Best.

It should also be signed by a independant witness and be registered. Double check if it is or isnt, and if it isnt, then theyre out of luck.

Nah theres no other signature bar my fathers and one agent of the company in question, in addition checked and they have no record/ registration.

If this is the case do I just notify them this is void and then seek a replacement log book from the DVLA or? Whats the best next steps.

Thanks

Hi

 

Here's the paperwork I have - redacted personal data and anything thta can be identifiable; any help is much appreciated.

 

Thanks!

can you put all those scans into a word doc please

and file save as .pdf

then upload them

Hi, Please find attached as PDF. As mentioned I contacted the court as per advice on this forum and they have advised no records... My partner is a bit worried they will try and take the vehicle and claim that the document they have is valid...

Is it worth me putting a BOS in for myself and partner even to the court so that I have some documentation and then my partner owns the vehicle or?

Thanks!

bos.pdf

It is really very difficult with the creditors details being redacted as well as your own however.

It does not seem to be bos agreement.

It seems tht you sold the car to the creditor then bought it back on a HP agreement which was for the sum of the price you sold the car for plus interest. ?

If this is correct , they can only repossess using the methods consistent with the consumer credit act. Not immediate recovery without a court order as per a BOS agreement.

where is the BOS ?

and have you received a default notice?

how much have you paid? more than 1/3rd

The 'Sale Agreement' is all they did for this - those 4 pages are all the documentation used for my contact with them.... There was 2 folks from the company that traveled up here but only 1 signed the sale agreement with me.... Bit confused by it all to be honest.

They sent a default notice but then arranged a shorter amount for a month then decided to change their mind and asked for more

As for the amount I've paid more than a third, in fact I paid the amount of credit rcd so it's just interest I'm paying just now really.

so where did the BOS come from

your mistake there was one?

how can you ask/write to the court if there was no BOS to ask about?

you've paid more than 1/3rd

they cant take the car without a return of goods order from A COURT.

if they do

you get the car back free

and the loan written off

and

your money back.

dx

The 'Sale Agreement' is all they did for this - those 4 pages are all the documentation used for my contact with them.... There was 2 folks from the company that traveled up here but only 1 signed the sale agreement with me.... Bit confused by it all to be honest.

 

They sent a default notice but then arranged a shorter amount for a month then decided to change their mind and asked for more

 

As for the amount I've paid more than a third, in fact I paid the amount of credit rcd so it's just interest I'm paying just now really.

I would just pay the balance due under the agreement. You need to pursue them for your documents of course. Do not be fooled into voluntarily surrendering your agreement and giving them the car, keep it on private premisses jut to avoid the temptation for them although they have no legal right to take it anyway.

As said by DX they need court order to gain a possession order for the car and the chances of them getting one in this situation are little to none in my opinion.

@dx100uk I thought the sale agreement constituted a Bill of Sale as that's essentially the way they advised that they now own the vehicle although it was my son who works in *shudder* collections at a public body who said it is iffy and raised my suspicion - I then read these forums and sent a letter asking the court if any bill of sale was registered and gave them my full address, vehicle information reg etc and they advised no bill of sale existed or on their records etc.

So really my question is regarding the 'sale agreement' if it actually is something enforcable or whether I can dispute it essentially, in terms of documents I can get the replacement docs from the DVLA and my son has advised I do so; he also suggested that I could technically sell the vehicle to my wife with a correct bill of sale and register it and that would offer some protection since the original sales agreement could potentially be flawed? Don't know if that makes any sense at all...

Cheers for all your help and taking the time to look at this.

Would you like me to answer this ?

Well am I on the right tracks with my idea going forward do you reckon or?

yes as others have said, just a standard hp agreement, carrying all the rights of an hp agreement

Bills of Sale Act does not apply in Scotland, valid in England and Wales only

The sake notice is not a bill a of sale because it is not in the correct form an it is not regulated.

"2

How bills of sale work

Within the context of consumer lending, bills of sale are often used to secure a loan on an item of personal property. The item of property could already be in the ownership of the consumer or it could be an item the consumer intends to purchase with the loan.

For the bill of sale to be valid and enforceable, it must be registered by the lender with the High Court. Specifically, every bill of sale to which the 1878 Act applies must be registered under section 8 of that Act, within 7 clear days of its making, and, under section 11 of the same Act, the registration of a bill of sale must be renewed at least once every 5 years. Where a lender can provide a properly registered bill of sale, there is no legal action that consumers in default can take to prevent seizure of the property.

It follows from this that if the bill of sale is not properly registered, then it is void and unenforceable. However, the problem, according to various consumer groups, is that many consumers are not aware of the requirement to register and do not check whether or not their own bill of sale has been registered. According to the Department of Business Innovation and Skills (BIS), this could potentially result in “vulnerable consumers particularly suffering unduly from questionable collection practices”.4"

So this notice of sale has the function of recording the sale of the vehicle to them as they say.

However they then go on to sell/hire the car to you on a HP agreement, since as said the original sale receipt is not a bill of sale the HP agreement is just a standard consumer credit agreement subject to all the protections of the act.

More importantly you have the right to regain possession of the vehicle when all sums due under the agreement(not the bill of sale) are settled.

Yeah I get the HP agreement but my question is the 'sale agreement' page where they 'purchased' the vehicle - obviously it doesn't have any witness etc and says they have all the keys to the vehicle which is already incorrect as I have the only keys - is there any way that can be potentially flawed or disputed which would in turn mean any HP agreement based on a car they claim to 'own' in which case they wouldn't be able to call ownership of it...