Whatever the final score, the margin will be very narrow. Last year I'd have predicted a 55 to 45 for remain, but the leave is gaining momentum, just like the yes gained traction at the last minute during the Scottish referendum. A game changer would be another terror attack maybe a couple of weeks before the vote.

In any case the matter will not be settled here and now. We don't even know what the EU will be in 10 years. The perfect solution would be a 2 tier Europe. Tier 1 are the countries that want to become part of a federal superstate. Tier 2 would be a bit like the EEA but on steroids. And in any case a European army is inevitable. How do you fight Islamic terrorism on European soil? It's clear that NATO are not really interested, as long as it doesn't affect USA interests.

Personally speaking, the future in Europe doesn't look good..

Personally speaking, the future in Europe doesn't look good..

Can I recommend:

Personally speaking, the future in Europe doesn't look good..

Does the future in the un-united Kingdom of England look any better?

Or the Eu with turkey now on a fast track to either dictatorship or escalation to full-blown Civil war

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/05/476856576/turkeys-prime-minister-to-step-down-as-president-erdogan-pushes-for-more-power

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/05/how-recep-tayyip-erdogan-brought-the-eu-to-heel/

Does the future in the un-united Kingdom of England look any better?

The future in the UK don't look good either, too many people allowed to come without proper checks is just asking for trouble..

wonder how many people commenting has lived in a real situation Dictatorship, as some views spell no resemblance to one!

We are lucky in many ways here in the UK but we need to know who everyone is that is coming here and it should concern us all..

wonder how many people commenting has lived in a real situation Dictatorship, as some views spell no resemblance to one!

yes

I think Turkey (so called democracy) started on roughly the same level as the Syrian dictatorship (which had religious and ethnic tolerance) at very best.

Some living in Turkey would perhaps have wished to live in pre-destabilisation Syria.

I am finding this interesting

Aljazeeras' head to head Normon Lamont Brexit supporter

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/headtohead/2016/04/norman-lamont-brexit-au-revoir-europe-160427074030118.html

In this episode of Head to Head, Mehdi Hasan challenges Norman Lamont, former British Chancellor of the Exchequer, or Finance Minister, and now Conservative peer in the House of Lords, on why he thinks the UK should leave the European Union.

He presided over the withdrawal of the pound from the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in September 1992.

I am finding this interesting

Aljazeeras' head to head Normon Lamont Brexit supporter

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/headtohead/2016/04/norman-lamont-brexit-au-revoir-europe-160427074030118.html

 

In this episode of Head to Head, Mehdi Hasan challenges Norman Lamont, former British Chancellor of the Exchequer, or Finance Minister, and now Conservative peer in the House of Lords, on why he thinks the UK should leave the European Union.

He presided over the withdrawal of the pound from the European Exchange Rate Mechanism in September 1992.

And that ERM mess caused hundreds of thousands to lose their homes to repossession. The Tories did nothing to help people who were affected by interest rates of up to 15%. Some think the Tories offered no help, because Tory friends were buying the repossessed homes at a huge discount. I know people who lost homes and people who made a small fortune out of this.

Some Tories and other seek to blame the EU, but they should look closer to home. Even if the UK voted for Brexit, you can bet that a UK government would still blame the EU.

And that ERM mess caused hundreds of thousands to lose their homes to repossession. The Tories did nothing to help people who were affected by interest rates of up to 15%. Some think the Tories offered no help, because Tory friends were buying the repossessed homes at a huge discount. I know people who lost homes and people who made a small fortune out of this.

 

Some Tories and other seek to blame the EU, but they should look closer to home. Even if the UK voted for Brexit, you can bet that a UK government would still blame the EU.

I completely agree with that assessment Unc, and it is at least as much the 'characters' who promote Brexit as it is the facts I can discern which drives me to be an IN vote, DESPITE some EU actions which I would unquestionably appose.

These UK BREXIT leaders will not have the general populaces interests at heart - quite the opposite.

in/out, its been shaken it all about

but, am still undecided...

How do we know it wont be rigged..

How do we know it wont be rigged..

Is that a question, CD?

It depends if you trust the Electoral Commission or not.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/

HB

How do we know it wont be rigged..

Wait until you see the ballot paper

1. Put X here if you want to stay in the EU

2. Put X here if you don't want to leave the EU

Wait until you see the ballot paper

 

1. Put X here if you want to stay in the EU

2. Put X here if you don't want to leave the EU

 

 

I could put Y (why)..

And now the European Council president Donald Tusk

says what I have always known, the Brussels dream of

a European super state is an ‘illusion’ that should be

stopped.

Moody’s have even said there was a risk the Brussels

club could disintegrate even if the UK votes to stay

in the June referendum-and it could be a matter of

‘when, not if’.

Analysts also warned that efforts led by European

Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker to

resolve the EU’s economic problems were failing.

As I have already said in a previous post better to get

out now while we can with some semblance of dignity

than when it all implodes.

How do we know it wont be rigged..

Simple. If it goes your way, democracy has won! If it goes the other way, it's been rigged.

And now the European Council president Donald Tusk

says what I have always known, the Brussels dream of

a European super state is an ‘illusion’ that should be

stopped.

 

 

Shows that the EU is aware of the issues and may be not only open to, bit desire change/

Puts them waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the UK government.

and if they are - they will thrive

If you don’t believe the information I have provide in

relation to a Euro army, try this then!

This ‘nightmare’ is becoming a reality.

Check the photographs we in the UK are not meant to

see-armed continental European policemen in training.

You will probably never have heard of this force.

However, the pictures are there for all to view on the

European Gendarmerie Force’s own official website,

http://www.eurogendfor.eu.

The existence of this force has been pooh-poohed by

Europhile commentators in Britain, dismissed as a

‘Europhobe’s scare-mongering nightmare’. Well it may

be a nightmare, but we didn’t dream it up, they did. Its

existence is a fact, documented from EU sources. But

in Britain there has been a news black-out about it.

So far, to my knowledge, the only mention of it in the

UK mass media was a full-page article by Jason Groves

in the Sunday Express on 9th September 2007, and a

passing mention in The Daily Telegraph by Philip Johnston

on 11th February 2008.

It was the subject of several columns during the Lisbon

debate in the Lords (Hansard, col.s 1103-1110, May 14th 2008).

The Eurogendarmes are training, for the moment, only

in Vicenza, Italy. But since it is called ‘European’,

and since there is now the Treaty of Velsen giving it a

legal basis under clear EU auspices, it is most unlikely

to remain forever in north-east Italy.

We in Britain must understand that the countries of

continental Europe not only have a tradition of criminal

justice that is completely different from our (no habeas

corpus, no trial by independent jury, etc., already

discussed at length elsewhere). They also have a totally

different tradition of policing.

They say quite openly that their police force draw on a

common ‘military root’, and the EU gendarmerie displays

this proudly in its emblem, with a flaming grenade.

To me this is a bizarre concept.

Check out the pictures. These ‘policemen’ appear more

like solders to me. Note their steel helmets, the heavy

automatic rifles, carried by the Spanish Guardia ‘Civil’,

this is what they are pleased to call a ‘civilian’ police force.

The police in continental Europe are militarised and carry

lethal weapons at all times. Our police are a civilian force

and are regularly unarmed.

Continental police forces are organised like an army in each

country, with officers called ‘colonel’ and ‘general’, and

commanded centrally by national governments. Individual

policemen are shifted around the country, so each city will

be patrolled by strangers. In contrast, our police are, by

tradition, locally recruited and locally accountable.

Our police are a body of self-propelling law-enforcers, whose

job is to prevent crime and investigate crime and collect evidence

so as to be able to prosecute criminals. If they had a symbol it

would be a magnifying glass and a Sherlock Holmes hat, not a

flaming grenade!

In some of the pictures you can see the Eurogendarmerie practising

their street-fighting tactics in battle formation. They are drilling in a

country area, but imagine them in an urban setting.

There are two nationalities of police in the pictures. Some are Italian

Carabinieri (it is written across their shields), who, in Italy, are military

police under a centralised national command and, although they are

military police and as such are part of the Italian army, they are used

as a ‘civilian’ police force and stationed in every borough and hamlet all

over the country, tasked to keep public order on the civilian population.

I'm not sure what your point is, buckthorn?

HB

I'm not sure what your point is, buckthorn?

 

HB

neither do I.

We've all heard of Interpol, and know that many European police carry firearms, as the US police and others do.

and no-one is disputing the possibility of a future EU military response force - just the wild allegations/allusions that they might end up boot-stomping across the UK or that Merkel might replace the US's finger on the UK's nuclear deterrent or commanding the UK's military.

Anyway, France has twice the nukes we have and has always been fully committed to the EU.

Even the US has more nuclear missiles in Europe than the UK has (but not as many as France)

Hers an article from 6 years ago

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/deterrent-lite-a-look-at-britain-s-and-france-s-nuclear-arsenals-a-688504.html

I do find that people in favour of Brexit are painting the EU as bogeymen, who are somehow responsible for all of the UK's problems.

The UK economy is doing OK compared to most EU countries and is not being held back by being in the EU. The UK is not part of the Schengen area and has full control over its borders. After Brexit there is no guarantee that the UK will be able to stop the rights of free movement stopping EU mainland citizens coming to the UK to live and work. It could take 10 years to negotiate Brexit and any signal to negotiate rights of movement might see a huge influx of people into the country.

I do find that people in favour of Brexit are painting the EU as bogeymen, who are somehow responsible for all of the UK's problems.

 

The UK economy is doing OK compared to most EU countries and is not being held back by being in the EU. The UK is not part of the Schengen area and has full control over its borders. After Brexit there is no guarantee that the UK will be able to stop the rights of free movement stopping EU mainland citizens coming to the UK to live and work. It could take 10 years to negotiate Brexit and any signal to negotiate rights of movement might see a huge influx of people into the country.

That really does nail it Unc,

and the middle east/none EU migrants that are coming in are at Camerons OK and by and large we DONT have to take them.

We are doing well IN the EU, compared to most of the EU, BUT being IN the EU with extra/special benefits is a large part of that

Another simple fact is that the EU IS at the start of major and necessary changes to survive, and we DO need to be part of that,