Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #21
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    Default Re: VAT on HCEO fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitely View Post
    Does it? Where?
    If they are not an employee their services are taxable. The position of bailiffs is similar to this.

    The other people involved in High Court debt recovery work, for example locksmiths, auctioneers or removal men are also regarded as making taxable supplies in the course of their businesses.


    The total fees and allowable expenses payable in respect of services provided by the different people involved are set out in the relevant Sheriff’s Fees Order. The value for VAT purposes is the amount each person gets as their share of the statutory fee and any expenses charged. The full amount charged, including tax, is recoverable from the debtor. ?


    YOU are confusing the fee paid to the HCEO by the creditor and that recovered from the debtor in fees, as well as all the other tings you are misunderstanding.(of which there are many)




  2. #22
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    Default Re: VAT on HCEO fees

    Again you are saying that all HCEAs are not employed by the EA comapny. Of course they will be a contracted employee - you can find many vacancies on the jobsites. Non-employees would be locksmiths, removal men etc. VAT on their services cannot be recovered.

    However, HMRC seem to make it clear that if the creditor is VAT registered then VAT on EA fees should not be paid by the debtor.

    I'm not on about any fees the creditor pays to the HCEA


  3. #23
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    Default Re: VAT on HCEO fees

    Give up


  4. #24
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    Default Re: VAT on HCEO fees

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    Give up
    That's helpful. I'll ask again - are you saying that all HCEA's are not salaried? Also if HMRC state.....

    • the judgment creditors are registered for VAT; and
    • the debt relates to their taxable business activities
    the VAT on the Under-Sheriffs and Sheriffs Officers enforcement services may be recovered by the judgment creditors.
    .... you feel that means a utility company doesn't pay the VAT. In the case stated, the EA has collected the VAT from the debtor, and no doubt will also charge it to the creditor, as HMRC instruct. Where does that second VAT charge go?


  5. #25
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Threads merged as we already have an existing discussion thread on this subject.

    Regards

    Andy


  6. #26
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    I had forgotten abut that, the original advice says much the same thing.

    There really ar no grounds to say the EA cannot charge VAT (currently). As long as bailiffs have to pay Tax on their income, they will have to have a means to recover that payment.

    This situation may change in the future, but hopefully when and if that happens, there will be new publications to explain how a modified system will work.


  7. #27
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    There really ar no grounds to say the EA cannot charge VAT (currently).
    HMRC state quite clearly when VAT should not be charged'

    As long as bailiffs have to pay Tax on their income, they will have to have a means to recover that payment.
    What has the bailiff's income tax got to do with charging VAT on fees?


  8. #28
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Indeed they do, it is just that everyone else seems to read the guidance differently than you. Not an unfamiliar story for you.

    Who said anything about income tax? If you mean VAT, the importance is that if the bailiff did not have to pay it there would be no need to recover it from the debtor "?

    Have ever asked a sensible question?


  9. #29
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    Indeed they do, it is just that everyone else seems to read the guidance differently than you. Not an unfamiliar story for you.
    This is what HMRC say:

    Therefore, where:
    • the judgment creditors are registered for VAT; and
    • the debt relates to their taxable business activities
    the VAT on the Under-Sheriffs and Sheriffs Officers enforcement services may be recovered by the judgment creditors.

    What is your interpretation of that then?


    Who said anything about income tax?
    Erm, you did - "As long as bailiffs have to pay Tax on their income, they will have to have a means to recover that payment."

    Tax on their income = income tax. Unless you mis-typed again.

    Have ever asked a sensible question?
    Ever written a coherent sentence?


  10. #30
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    The part you quoted relates to tax invoices for services to the creditor creditors fees?

    As said the service is to the creditor he engages them.

    Enforcement fees are due to the bailiff as income, VAT is due because of that.

    Sorry is that not coherent ( I have told you this before)

    Oh sorry, tax on a bailiffs income is not income tax, that would be tax on the person, not his job.


  11. #31
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    There is confirmation here, I hope it is not too incoherent for you.

    Sheriffs are aware that, although judgment debtors pay the cost of sheriffs’ enforcement fees, the supplies are always to the creditors. VAT invoices for the services must be addressed and sent to the creditors. Any documents issued to debtors should make it clear that they are not VAT invoices.


    My emphasis





  12. #32
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    Oh sorry, tax on a bailiffs income is not income tax, that would be tax on the person, not his job.
    What?

    Dodgeball, it's very simple. EA's collecting fines, council tax and other debts owed to a Government Agency automatically charge any VAT on fees to the authority who then reclaim it from HMRC.

    An HCEA will collect civil debts - this could be someone or a company who may or may not be registered for VAT. If the creditor is not registered for VAT then the VAT on fees is recovered from the debtor. If the creditor is registered for VAT then the VAT on fees is paid by the creditor who then reclaims it from HMRC.

    This is why the guide is in place, to instruct on what to do depending on the circumstances.


  13. #33
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    I see, and you are the only one who spotted this unique interpretation no one else has.

    Have you thought of getting a less cerebral hobby.
    Gardening is good.


  14. #34
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    I see, and you are the only one who spotted this unique interpretation no one else has.
    .
    Seems to me that only you are arguing the opposite. Bit like claiming tax on income isn't income tax.


  15. #35
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Income tax is calculated on personal income not business income. You see why it is pointless arguing with you. I will be instructing you on how to do your shoe laces shortly.

    I am out.


  16. #36
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodgeball View Post
    Income tax is calculated on personal income not business income.
    Indeed it is. Just a shame it's not what you said earlier.

    tax on a bailiffs income is not income tax,
    Substitute the word 'bailiffs' for any other profession and you'll see how ridiculous that sounds.....

    Tax on a doctor's income is not income tax...... tax on a bus driver's income is not income tax....... tax on a carpenter's income is not income tax...... tax on a hairdresser's income is not income tax..... you get the idea.


  17. #37
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    God, you should get a life. Income tax is a personal tax, not a business tax. Do you know this? What you are talking about is a bailiff personal tax. If I would have meant bailiffs personal tax, then that is what I would have said.

    I don't now what this has to do with the question of VAT.


  18. #38
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    Income tax is a tax on one's personal income - the clue's in the title. I'll remind you what you said:

    As long as bailiffs have to pay Tax on their income, they will have to have a means to recover that payment.
    Tax on their income - clearly that translates as Income Tax. And which payment would they be recovering due to this tax? This is the problem Dodgeball - you don't seem to stop and think before you post to see if you're making any sense.


  19. #39
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    If I can just remind posters this thread is about Vat charged on fees...not Income Tax or Bailiff Salaries...please lets not have another derailed thread.


  20. #40
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    Default Re: Judgments enforced by High Court Enforcement Officers....can VAT be charged on their fees?

    let's just lay out what HMRC say.

    All EA's charge VAT on their fees. If the debt is under a non-high court warrant, usually owed to an authority for council tax, fines, etc, then the EA charges the VAT to the authority who then reclaim it from HMRC.

    For a debt under a high court warrant there are two rules. If the creditor is an individual then the VAT is charged to the debtor.

    If the creditor is VAT registered and the debt relates to their business, then the creditor pays the VAT and reclaims it from HMRC. The debtor does not pay the VAT in these circumstances.

    The thread that started this debate was about a debt owed to a utility company. Clearly they would be VAT registered so they would need to pay the VAT. The OP of the thread says he paid the VAT - this was wrong.

    If anyone wants to present an alternative view, please do.

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