I have a feeling this will be addressed easily

 

NATO is a defensive alliance

Russian Jet did not "Attack" Turkey

 

Plus what are the range on those air to air missiles

Other strange thing is that the Russians initially reported it downed by a ground to air attack - as if they didnt know a Turkish plane shot at them.

(common range around 20km max as they would be unlikely to be using very expensive modern ones)

Seems likely a sucker punch from the Turks.

They really are a liability to NATO.

Took them ages to allow US to use bases - and only after the US had arranged other options.

Bombing Kurds and protecting IS yet moan about Russia protecting their Syrian base zone from al-nusra radicals.

Russian Jet shot down in Syria/Turkey (Flip a coin)

Well, Turkey, (and the rest of the Western World) have warned them enough times. Putin for some stupid reason thinks the whole world is afraid of him, probably because

there was no military reaction to him invading Crimea.

This shows they are not.

Wont NATO be able to confirm where the Jet was at the time of it being shot at ? I see they have quite a sophisticated map of where everything is ?

Wont NATO be able to confirm where the Jet was at the time of it being shot at ? I see they have quite a sophisticated map of where everything is ?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gaziantep,+Turkey/@35.871398,36.1415968,11z

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/turkey-shoots-warplane-syria-border-151124081519290.html

Yes, but they will only admit it if it suites their purposes, and even then only release what they want to be seen. Just as Russia will. Just as Turkey will.

Its probable that the issue here is Turkey running its own agenda. Not certain, but highly probable.

Wonder if the Russians will start shooting down Turkish planes violating Syrian air space to bomb Kurds, let alone a simple flyover?

That also would not require Nata to come to Turkeys aide in violating a sovereign states airspace.

This is the sort of thing the Yanks want to avoid - issues with violating sovereign airspace - they have been doing it on a daily basis for a decade.

Also a good update http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/24/middleeast/warplane-crashes-near-syria-turkey-border/

Tonights Newsnight is worth a watch for those interested.

ruski saying shooting was an act of provocation. (though what about crimea )

a Q being posed; although it was (according to turkey an invasion of air space) wld've turkey shot down a US/brit/french etc in the same circs? given what toby suggests that it wld not have been in their space (as shown by their own log, over the tip) for long given the speed. and was it actually then shot in syrian air apace.

of course, all depends on the actual truth of circumstances.

Bearing in mind a few things

How small the land allegedly flown over

How long (or not) the plane was in Turkish air space

The range of the missiles used to shoot it down (Im sure the range can be miles on its own)

The location of both planes when the missile was launched

The time it takes for the missile to travel.

Entirely possible launch was made at the Russian plane whilst in Turkish airspace

But impact may occur over Syrian territory

But as we all know

the truth will not matter, look at Ukraine

Turkey has now been releasing different flight paths for the 2 russian planes Turkey says were involved.

Perhaps realised that the initial ones they released simply dont wash.

The later ones show a plane skirting the border for longer.

I think Hollandes statements on the issue clearly point at Turkey despite him not actually saying that.

Also see here which seems to indicate Turkey's rhetoric is changing

http://news.yahoo.com/west-urges-escalation-turkey-shoots-down-russian-plane-082736643.html

Russia is is reportedly deploying advanced surface to air missile systems as well as a missile cruiser moved to near the Turkish border with orders to engage any 'threat'.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/25/middleeast/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-shot-down/

Wonder if Russia will expand air protection to the Kurds fighting ISIS who are being bombed in Syria by the Turks

This is worth a read if not a 'watch'

Turkey says plane was in its airspace for approx 17 seconds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/turkey-syria-russia-military-plane.html?_r=0

It matters not how long the Russian plane was in their airspace, they have been warned on several occasions and as the belief of Putin is that the whole world is afraid to take any action against

them and 'knowing' that the Russia dictator and his cronies are the words biggest liars, I side with Turkey.

What they said actually happened and nothing Russia says is true.

I side with Turkey.

What they said actually happened and nothing Russia says is true.

LOL

Frances' Hollande would also appear to disagree with you Conniff, he wants the aide of Russia, not NATO and especially not Turkey.

I don't see any reports where Hollande has said that Russia did not encroach into Turkey airspace so I can't see where he is disagreeing with me.

Concerned about MP talk of troops on the ground. I would say no to that. Air strikes, aren't there enough over the region? More 'accidents'? The oxygen needs to be cut off and that's the finance.

The Russian pilots could have been handed back to the Russians. It's all a tragic mess. 'Russians' bringing down a passenger plane. 'ISIS/ISIL' bringing down a passenger plane.

Remove Assad and replace with who? Needs to be worked on.

Corby 'cannot support air strikes' bbc 'Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has written to his MPs saying he cannot back UK air strikes in Syria - prompting a warning of shadow cabinet resignations.........'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34939109

it seems that there would only be troops as part of a UN force. which may need to be considered if the strikes (and syrian army, with its friends, etc on the ground) dont succeed?

Looks like we will need the ground troops here if our internal struggle with ISIS/ISIL cannot be stopped.

more beeb news

'Russia has rejected Turkey's claims that it did not know the plane it shot down on the Syria border was Russian. President Vladimir Putin said Russian planes were easily identifiable and the jet's flight co-ordinates had been passed on to Turkey's ally, the US... "If it was an American aircraft, would they have struck?" ....

Turkey's president said earlier if it had known the plane was Russian "maybe we would have warned it differently"...http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34940109

Concerned about MP talk of troops on the ground. I would say no to that. Air strikes, aren't there enough over the region? More 'accidents'? The oxygen needs to be cut off and that's the finance.

 

 

I would not be happy to see more of our troops on the ground either.

I agree that they should be starved of financing and would like to see those who do finance this type war also taken to task.

Cameron has claimed there are 70,000 free syrian troops available to fight isis on the ground.

Strange that the yanks can't actually find a handful.

.. and even the few they find are betrayed by Turkey

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/middle-east/article32206167.html

and :

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/11/03/88-isis-recruits-fail-to-complete-british-training-program-in-turkey/

US drops projected training numbers from 5,400 a year to perhaps 500.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/1ba1b34b98d54ae7be2aabf107c4faff/syrian-activist-say-missile-attack-kills-18-northern-city

can i point out that if more people join in this war turkey will have to ask planes to move out of the way to hit the next Russian

the bbc news graphic re sorties compared to other conflicts was interesting. apparently 2 an hour in syria.

russia now announce economic sanctions re turkey in response to downing of their Su-24

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34954575

the bbc news graphic re sorties compared to other conflicts was interesting. apparently 2 an hour in syria.

Where can we get tickets

russia now announce economic sanctions re turkey in response to downing of their Su-24

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34954575

This will probably work against Russia in the long term. Turkey will find other outlets to sell to and markets to buy the products it now buys from Russia. Once that is established, lots won't go back again when Putin stops acting like a spoilt child.

Where can we get tickets

.

saw it on the news. this was it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34916209

Even the Daily Mail are not yet convinced about bombing http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3337003/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Mr-Cameron-hasn-t-case-bombing-Syria.html

You'd never guess that by the way they berate those who oppose this action.

ruski saying shooting was an act of provocation. (though what about crimea )

Referencing Crimea, an interesting fact : the particular Turkish 'bump' into Syria in question was actually annexed from Syria by the Turks.