Hi all sorry this is long winded but i could really do with some advice

I am wondering what constitutes a first offence? is it the first time you have done something, or the first time you’re caught.

I was stopped without a ticket at my destination on Monday, I was in a rush and didn’t get one at the initial station assuming I could get one on the train itself. No guard came round checking or asking for tickets so I didn’t get one.

As I was leaving the station thinking I had gotten lucky I was stopped, questioned by a RPO and handed a card that says they will send me a letter outlining the facts and that I need to respond within 21 days. It doesn’t seem to be an unpaid fare notice but I am not sure what one of them looks like.

What will happen to me now? Is this my first offence? It is the first time I have been stopped but a few times I have boarded the train with the intention of buying (I always carry cash and card in case I get asked, I would never get on a train with no means to pay) I was under the impression that as they sell tickets on the train, you didn’t need to queue at the ticket office to get one, but if the guard doesn’t come round asking then I, along with many others, have just got off without paying (no excuse, i know)

to be honest I now know I’m in the wrong but I genuinely thought that if you weren’t asked for a ticket then it wasn’t your fault, and both stations I use don’t have barriers so I haven’t consciously attempted to avoid paying by jumping them or sneaking around them or anything. Similarly I haven’t doctored a card or used other fraudulent methods. I just haven’t gone out of my way to pay the fare (which, obviously I should have, and will do from now on).

If I am on CCTV walking through the stations/on the train without going to any ticket office/finding the ticket guard can they use this against me? Or is there no way of proving I didn’t have a valid ticket in my pocket? As more often than not, I genuinely did haveI realise I was in the wrong and am more than willing to pay. I have not tried to get away with anything, I gave my correct name and address, I have seen stories of people giving fake information and landing themselves in hot water. I take it as a lesson learned and from now on I will leave for the station that bit earlier to queue at the ticket office, which doesn’t eradicate what I have done in the past but it’s all I can do.

The thing that’s killing me is the not knowing what my punishment will be. what is the likely outcome in your experience for someone in my shoes?I’ve done some research and it seems like I have breached a law of some sort that says the maximum punishment is £1000 fine or 3 months in jail. What are my chances of this?What are my chances of losing my job? Do I need to declare my criminal record if I get one? I just work in an office and don’t have to have an CRB check.

Thanks for taking the time to read, I am a natural worrier and haven’t slept. It’s my own fault and I am willing to take whatever punishment given to me. I am not asking for sympathy or judgement, just your expert opinion. its not the fact that i am goimg to be punished thats bothering me, as i deserve it. its the not knowing what that will be thats killikng me. any idea of what will happen to me will be greatly appreciated.

Some facts to make it easier for you to help me – the company was virgin, the fare was just under £5 (don’t want to give exact amount in case that gives too much away), the RPO who stopped me was a virgin employee but in plain clothes (showed me their card after stopping me)

Thanks again

I think you have answered your own question - It has to be the first time you are caught.

So this will go down as a first offence?. In that case what is my punishment and outcome likely to be? Thanks again.

So this will go down as a first offence?. In that case what is my punishment and outcome likely to be? Thanks again.

These are made of meat not crystal!

Who knows?

You've not even received the letter yet, so wait until you do then worry about it then.

Certainly won't be a grand fine or three months in nick!

Certainly won't be a grand fine or three months in nick!

It would if TFL had their way.

Hello there. I've popped a few paragraphs into your post to make it easier for the advisers to read.

The guidelines of £1000 or 3 months in prison are the maximum penalties for this offence, it will be less for a first offence. You need one of our rail experts to advise you on what might happen in your case. And when the letter comes, we can also advise you on how to reply.

For information, the guard isn't meant to come and ask who has tickets, it's for you to go and find them, as you've found out to your cost. You will need to be careful that you don't sound as if you think it's Virgin's fault when you write back to them.

Hopefully the guys will be along later with advice for you.

HB

Thanks for doing the paragraphs. I wrote it out with them in a word document but when i copied and pasted they went.

Yes I now know it is me who has to find the guard. I didn't at the time. As stupid as that sounds now. Do I have to reply to the letter or if I just accept guilt and pay whatever I am fined would that be enough. As I accept it's my fault and just want to end the matter as soon as I can.

Once again thanks for your replies

Hi again. Also on the card I was handed by the RPO it tells me 'what will happen next' which basically says I will receive a letter outlining the facts that I have to respond to in 21 days. Will this be a letter or will I have the opportunity then just to admit my guilt and write a cheque? I don't see any point in explaining myself I don't see what it could do I'm not trying to get out of it or get leniency

Any advice would be greatly appreciated

I really do want this over with as soon as possible. I think it's safe to say I've learned from it

Hello again.

The letter will ask for your version of events and when they've seen what you say, they will decide whether to take things further. Once you've sent the letter in, you can try phoning to ask if they will let you reach an administrative settlement.

HB

Ah, so this is a long way from being sorted? I have looked on citizens advice and they seem to say i will get A sunmons. Or is this just if they decide to prosecute after i give them my version of events? know I have done wrong and would just like to put it right as soon as possible. I'm not sure I can take feeling like this for months. Is their any way I could even try to phone or write and offer to settle already or would that be silly?

Thanks again for your help

Ah, so this is a long way from being sorted? I have looked on citizens advice and they seem to say i will get A sunmons. Or is this just if they decide to prosecute after i give them my version of events? know I have done wrong and would just like to put it right as soon as possible. I'm not sure I can take feeling like this for months. Is their any way I could even try to phone or write and offer to settle already or would that be silly?

 

Thanks again for your help

If you don't reply to the letter, expect a summons.

Once you get the letter, post here saying what it says (personal details removed), as it may give an indication of what you are facing.

"I'm not sure I can take feeling like this for months. Is their any way I could even try to phone or write and offer to settle already or would that be silly?".

You could phone or write now, but it isn't advisable.

Who are you going to phone or write to? You want it to reach the correct people.

How are they going to link your call to the report made by the staff? The letter you will likely receive will have a reference number allowing this.

How do you know the report paperwork won't get mislaid by the TOC (and you 'getting away with it') ? (unlikely, but why 'stir the pot' unnecessarily?).

I know you say "I am a natural worrier", but if so, I'd suggest:

1) Making sure you comply with the law / Bylaws - you may not have meant to commit an offence but you have, and you'll no doubt want to avoid any other such worries

2) Take the good advice offered here - if you aren't sure why it is good advice, you can always ask e.g. "I'm a worrier, so why are you you guys saying wait for the letter rather than writing now" !

Thanks for your advice so far

I have a few more questions that are troubling me if you don't mind....

Firstly, on citizens advice it says that when I get the summons I will also get a means form so they can gage my income and work out how best to take the money. Would I be able to request paying it all in one go? As I would rather that than every month for a while. As I have said I would like to get it over and done with

Secondly , what are the chances of me losing my job? I am just a regular office worker I don't work with children or the vulnerable and have been in this job for 8 years. Do they even need to know about this? As I am not planning on leaving any time soon. I am a member of a union if that makes a difference.

And finally, seeing as this process looks like it will take a while am I okay going on holiday whilst it is ongoing? I am traveling within the EU to spain so I don't see it being a problem but I thought I'd better ask as you have been so helpful so far

Thanks once again for taking the time to read these I appreciate it greatly.

I realise now an error of judgment or wrong information has cost me dearly

Don't believe what CAB tells you, the experts are here on this thread.

There certainly are experts on this thread they have calmed me down considerably.

So what I gather if you're correct is that in a few weeks time I will get a letter from the train company with their version of events and asking me to respond. Then I give my version of events and apologise and send that off. Next they either accept that and no further action will be taken apart from my name on the system and a promise of legal action if I do it again (which I wont) or they still decide to prosecute and I am issued a summons. I plead guilty and therefore don't have to attend the hearing. Once the hearing is over I am informed of what my punishment will be and arrangements made to pay it.

Does that seem correct to the experts?

Also any idea about if I'm okay travelling to Spain whilst this is ongoing? It's a family holiday and would kill me to cancel. Thanks again

Your allowed to have a family holiday, it's a human right..

Even if this situation is still ongoing? I know you can't travel if you have court pending for certain offences such as assault. I take it this is not held in the same regard

That's a relief. Thanks once again

Hello again. I think you should be able to travel regardless. As long as your dates of being abroad don't coincide with when you need to reply to the letter, you should be OK.

Why are you planning not to go to court please? You might be able to reduce the penalty if you turn up and make a good impression. And you also have the option of negotiating beforehand.

HB

Hi. The holiday us only 7 days and you get 21 days for all correspondence so I should be fine on that score. Thanks once again for putting my mind at ease.

Also I am not planning on going to court for a few reasons. I intend to plead guilty if a summons arrives. I hope it won't as I hope my letter and offer of a settlement will suffice, but if not I shall plead guilty as that's what I am. And because I want it to be over as soon as possible

Also I am not to keen on actually going to court as I have never been in one before and wouldn't hold up too well I don't think

I will attempt an out of court in my apology letter.

Thanks so much for your continued advice. I will make sure to donate

I would try to keep an open mind on court if you can. Let's see if they write and if they do, what offence they think you've committed. If you plead guilty, then you could get a criminal record automatically.

Also, on the day you still have the possibility of speaking to the prosecutor to ask to settle before the case.

HB

Hi again

I of course will keep an open mind with regards to court. If what is in the initial letter I do think agree with I shall challenge it

once again thank you

just to let you know i have donated as a thankyou for all your assistance in helping me

just to let you know i have donated as a thankyou for all your assistance in helping me

Thank you very much for the donation, it will help us to keep advising people like yourself.

HB

If this involves Warrington-Wigan or Stockport-Manchester then you are on a very very dangerous path.

Plain clothes teams have been operating for a lot longer than since they have stopped you - they have been observing specific trains and people for some time now, so hopefully for you, it is just a one off.