Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1
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    Default Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    I went to sign on yesterday and came away shaken and in floods of tears.

    I was called over to see the advisor who was going to sign me and had my written jobsearch evidence with me.

    They asked me how I recorded my jobsearch and I said written on the forms that are given out at the jobcentre. They asked why not on universal jobmatch and I stated that I was happy doing it my way as it kept things clear in my mind.

    The advisor then when on about how when electronic signing comes in, the pads are there on the desks already, then I would have to provide my jobsearch evidence using universal jobmatch, no ifs or buts as it would be checked remotely by another office before payment is released and if I refuse access then I get no money and my claim will be closed or I will be sanction.

    I didn't know what to say to this, never heard anything about this so didn't know if they were lying or what to me. They kept going on and on about access to my universal jobmatch account and wouldn't just accept that I was saying no and wanted to record my jobsearch my way.

    In the end I was getting myself so distressed I had to call my friend over, I take my friend with me I suffer with terrible nerves and get so anxious every time I go near the jobcentre as I am unsure of what will happen each fortnight. By the time she got over I was in floods of tears and was gasping for breath.

    The advisor then said sign that and told my friend to keep quiet as she was not allowed to speak. They told me this would be discussed on another occasion as access will need to be given.

    I felt like the advisor was like a dog with a bone and wouldn't let it go no matter what I said.

    I am now scared of what will happen the next signing day.

    Can anyone offer any advice at all?

    Thanks


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Reading your account of the harrowing treatment you received at the hands of your advisers has sickened me. If they behaved like that with me, or within my hearing, it would have taken more than the goons decorating the place to stop me from slapping them silly.

    Fortunately you now have 2 weeks to prepare for the next appointment. Please be assured that before then, I, and I would hope and expect many others too, will do all we can to ensure that you will be well prepared.

    On Universal Jobmatch (UJ), you do not have to use it if you do not want to. They can't make you, and there is nothing they can do about it. They know that. We'll provide you with enough evidence in the form of the DWP's own Guidance to support you in proving those facts.

    On the issue of electronic signing. That is not going to change the law as far as UJ is concerned. I have doubts about the implications this is going to have on personal privacy and security. How can they guarantee that once they have an electronic copy of my signature that they will not use it in ways that could make it look like I had signed all sorts of other stuff? I passed this concern onto my adviser last week and all I got was a sheepish grin. She said that the adviser would still have to be present to enter the appropriate information onto the computer in order to process payment.

    In the meantime you might give careful consideration to writing a letter of complaint to the Jobcentre manager registering your dissatisfaction with the treatment that you received, and that you intend to pursue a maladministration complaint to the highest level unless you get an apology and a promise of no recurrence of such treatment. Insist on a written response and remind them that they have 15 days to respond.


  3. #3
    Gold Account Holder SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep Highly informative SabreSheep's Avatar



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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    OK this is exactly what the last advisor tried to do to me

    Here is how I dealt with it.

    First off I stated that according to the regulations I can present my job searching activity in any way, including paper forms.
    Secodnly I stated that I wanted to see the "New Regulations" and also the "universal Jobmatch Toolkit" where it states UJM is mandatory!

    I then asked her to go talk to her manager and get them over here with the new regulations. Refuse to sign anything mentioning UJM and the work booklet too if you so wish.

    then put in your written complaint about bullying and maladministration.

    In m,y case the advisor came back after 5 minutes stating the regulations were available online and the ujm toolkkit info was not available. My response was" I know the regulations are online as i HAVE READ AND UNDERSTOOD THEM" and know what you are trying to force me to do is not mandatory..

    The following week I presented to HER the UJM toolkit with appropriate bits highlighted.

    UJM on draft Claiment COmmittment-------DELETED

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  4. #4
    Basic Account Holder Helen2264 Novitiate



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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by NicolaBryant View Post
    I went to sign on yesterday and came away shaken and in floods of tears.

    I was called over to see the advisor who was going to sign me and had my written jobsearch evidence with me.

    They asked me how I recorded my jobsearch and I said written on the forms that are given out at the jobcentre. They asked why not on universal jobmatch and I stated that I was happy doing it my way as it kept things clear in my mind.

    The advisor then when on about how when electronic signing comes in, the pads are there on the desks already, then I would have to provide my jobsearch evidence using universal jobmatch, no ifs or buts as it would be checked remotely by another office before payment is released and if I refuse access then I get no money and my claim will be closed or I will be sanction.

    I didn't know what to say to this, never heard anything about this so didn't know if they were lying or what to me. They kept going on and on about access to my universal jobmatch account and wouldn't just accept that I was saying no and wanted to record my jobsearch my way.

    In the end I was getting myself so distressed I had to call my friend over, I take my friend with me I suffer with terrible nerves and get so anxious every time I go near the jobcentre as I am unsure of what will happen each fortnight. By the time she got over I was in floods of tears and was gasping for breath.

    The advisor then said sign that and told my friend to keep quiet as she was not allowed to speak. They told me this would be discussed on another occasion as access will need to be given.

    I felt like the advisor was like a dog with a bone and wouldn't let it go no matter what I said.

    I am now scared of what will happen the next signing day.

    Can anyone offer any advice at all?

    Thanks
    I would advise you to get hold of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 google it and download then read all about Job Seekers make sure you carry the part about Universal Job Search on you every time you attend your jobcentre plus appointment. They tried to catch my young son I took copy of the UJM part from the welfare Reform Act and made my son carries it at all times, I also on his behalf spoke to the dwp and read the part about UJM they never bothered him again. It was me who found a job for my son, he has been working full time since September last year a good job he is Accountant Assistant to two directors and love his job.

    The DWP and ATOS can be beaten I know from personal experience.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by NicolaBryant View Post
    The advisor then when on about how when electronic signing comes in, the pads are there on the desks already, then I would have to provide my jobsearch evidence using universal jobmatch, no ifs or buts as it would be checked remotely by another office before payment is released and if I refuse access then I get no money and my claim will be closed or I will be sanction.

    I didn't know what to say to this, never heard anything about this so didn't know if they were lying or what to me.
    Yes, they're utterly and totally lying - as they have done to countless others. Pity you hadn't recorded the adviser saying this rubbish, they'd have been in big trouble - I'd start recording them from now on or ask for a new adviser.

    You could also ask the adviser to put it all in an official written and signed Jobseekers Direction, mandating you to give access to your UJ under threat of a sanction. They won't because they know full well that they can't specify how a claimant shows their jobsearch evidence. They'll also know that they can't force anyone to give access to their UJ account as it's clearly stated in various guidance documents and all JC staff received a sharp memo from their PCS Union telling them they must on no account try to gain access to anyone's UJ if the person was unwilling. (Memo was issued to JC staff in March 2013 so you may want to refer the adviser to it - I've found nothing which has countermanded it so it still applies)

    As far as I know - and I asked - the electronic signing pads are simply to trigger the payments and save the advisers having to do it manually. They have no connection at all to jobsearch evidence or UJ.. or none that I know of anyway. Most advisers at my JC don't even want the things as they know that when they go wrong - and they undoubtedly will - it's going to cause them a lot of bother sorting out missing payments.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    My only advice re UJM is DO NOT USE IT - it is a total waste of time. I have never known ANYONE get a job from it and I spoke to around 50 people in the space of a year when on JSA. All repeated job, or fale ones or CV collecting [problem]s. At best, use it for a 5 min check and to record activity but BACK THIS UP with your own records as they mysetriously seem to go missing on UJM - and sanction!


  7. #7
    Basic Account Holder Tj rodgers Novitiate



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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Im worried about when signing goes digital and a different office checks your jobsearch without me being present - i dnt trust them at all

    TJR JNR
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tj rodgers View Post
    Im worried about when signing goes digital and a different office checks your jobsearch without me being present - i dnt trust them at all
    From what I was told the electronic pad simply replaces the bit of paper you sign - and that's all. You'll attend your signing-on as normal, the clerk there will check your jobsearch as they always do then you'll sign the electronic pad instead of the paper one.

    It's still up to the adviser you see to confirm your jobsearch was okay or not. I'm due to sign on later today and I'll be asking someone else there to confirm that the electronic pads have no connection to jobsearching activities.


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder Tj rodgers Novitiate



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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Yes let us know what happens

    TJR JNR
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tj rodgers View Post
    Yes let us know what happens
    Checked with another of the advisers today when I signed on and she also said the electronic pad is purely to put payments through and has no connection to job search checking. They know I record all conversations and have reported their colleagues so I don't think they'd give me any rubbish.

    She gave the opinion that maybe in years to come everything would be electronic and all linked up - signing, jobsearch checking, etc but had no idea when or if this would happen or that it would ever be workable. Basically she didn't know what was happening from one minute to the next. Most JC staff are very unhappy with all this 'convert to electronic' strategy as it's slowly taking away their place in the system.

    As I said earlier, ask your adviser to put it all in writing. If what they say is true they'll have no objection


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    It would be a massive breach of security if it was 'all linked together with job searching', loads of firms simply would not have the capacity to safely store all applications for a job, for any length of time, and certainly most companies I have come across only store unsuccessfull applications for about 3 months, if that!

    There is a lot of scaremongering around about the capability of the technology - and that is not helping the jobcentres one bit.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by jasta11 View Post
    Checked with another of the advisers today when I signed on and she also said the electronic pad is purely to put payments through and has no connection to job search checking. They know I record all conversations and have reported their colleagues so I don't think they'd give me any rubbish.

    She gave the opinion that maybe in years to come everything would be electronic and all linked up - signing, jobsearch checking, etc but had no idea when or if this would happen or that it would ever be workable. Basically she didn't know what was happening from one minute to the next. Most JC staff are very unhappy with all this 'convert to electronic' strategy as it's slowly taking away their place in the system.

    As I said earlier, ask your adviser to put it all in writing. If what they say is true they'll have no objection
    Jasta, given the government's history on IT, I can't see it being anytime soon.

    HB

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  13. #13
    Basic Account Holder Tj rodgers Novitiate



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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Its not companies keeping hold of job applications or not that bothers me it would be having my jobsearch digitally sent to another dwp worker to check without me being present that would really be alarming

    TJR JNR
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Arguments to support the contention that there is no legal obligation on claimants to register with Universal Jobmatch (UJ) at all. This may be of use also to claimants who believe that they have been conned into signing up to UJ in the first place.

    The Universal Jobmatch Toolkit that I am quoting from here was used in a Freedom of Informationicon Response by DWP on 29 - Jan - 2015. That's a week ago.

    Chapter2, Paragraph 3 of the Universal Jobmatch Toolkit says:

    3 If the jobseeker does not have a Government Gateway Account, they will need to create one in order to receive the full benefits of UJ. This means they will need a Government Gateway User ID and password. To do this they will need to access www.gov.uk/jobsearchand select the ‘Register with Universal Jobmatch’ link. This will launch the‘Register for a Government Gateway account’ page.

    This explains that a claimant has to open a Government Gateway (GG) Account before he/she can register with UJ.

    So that's the first point where misunderstandings occur. The claimant is not opening a UJ Account, he/she is opening a GG Account and via it registering with UJ. There is no indication that any of that is mandatory. It merely states that this is what you need to do IF you wish to use UJ.

    The next part relevant to support our contention is Chapter 2, Paragraphs 12 to 14:

    Jobseeker does not create an account

    12 Jobseekers that do not create an account will only be able to use Universal Jobmatch (UJ) to conduct anonymous job searches.To do this they will need to access: www.gov.uk/jobsearch and enter a Job title and/or Town, place or postcode and/or Skills in the search fields and select ‘Search’.

    13 JSA claimants will be encouraged to register and create an account by personal advisers and assistant advisers who will explain the benefits to claimants of creating a profile and public CV in UJ. Further guidance on how advisers and assistant advisers will do this can be found in Chapter 3 of this toolkit.

    14. However, where attempts to persuade JSA claimants to create a profile and public CV have failed, a Jobseeker’s Direction can be used to mandate them to do so in appropriate circumstances. Further guidance on how and when JSA claimants can be mandated to create a profile and public CV can be found in Chapter 3 of this toolkit.

    Paragraph 12 explains how a claimant who doesn't want to register can still use UJ. They would hardly do this if it was mandatory for a claimant to register.

    Paragraph 13 confirms that claimants are to be 'encouraged'. This is where advisers tend to confuse 'encouraged' with 'cajoled', ' lied to', 'threatened'.

    Paragraph 14 informs us that a Jobseeker’s Direction can be used to mandate claimants to create a profile and public CV in 'appropriate circumstances'. Notice it says 'in appropriate circumstance'.

    Before going on to learn a bit more about what the 'appropriate circumstance' are it might be worth pausing to consider Paragraph 14 again. It says that the claimant can be mandated to create a profile and public CV. Notice that it does not say that the claimant can be mandated to register with UJ or open a GG Account. Suffice it to say here they could not do that because they would be running foul of personal privacy rights conferred on the citizen under the Human Rights Act and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

    The use and abuse of cookies is another good reason why one should be wary of using UJ. It is asserted that using DWP IADs will overcome this objection but there are EU Directives on electronic devices that contradict that assertion.

    Let us now consider the 'appropriate circumstances' in which the claimant may be mandated.

    Issuing a Jobseeker’s Direction to mandate JSA claimants to create a profile and public CV in Universal Jobmatch

    38. When you have explained the benefits to claimants of creating a profile and public CV in Universal Jobmatch, they can be mandated to create a profile and public CV.

    39. However, for legal reasons, you cannot issue a Jobseeker’s Direction to mandate a claimant to create a profile and public CV unless a DWP IAD service is reasonably available to them should they need to use one - for example, because they do not want to accept cookies and therefore need to have access to a device on which cookies have already been accepted.

    40. You also cannot issue a Jobseeker’s Direction to mandate a claimant to give us access to their account – this is their decision not ours.

    What to consider before issuing a Direction

    41. The Jobseeker’s Direction guidance explains the factors that must be considered before a Jobseeker’s Direction is issued. In particular, a Jobseeker’s Direction mandating claimants to create a profile and public CV in Universal Jobmatch must be reasonable in terms of:
    improving the claimant’s employment prospects; and

    the claimant being able to use the service.

    42. For the majority of claimants, creating a profile and public CV in Universal Jobmatch will be an important part of improving employment prospects. However, actually creating a profile and public CV and using the service may be less than straightforward for some claimants if they are not reasonably able to use the service, for example those:

    with a learning or other health-related condition; or

    for whom English is their second language; or

    who lack appropriate literacy and/or numeracy skills; or

    who are not reasonably able to access their own computer/device (for example, because they do not have such a device or cannot afford to access the internet) and are not reasonably able to access an alternative internet access device in their area (for example, because of their personal circumstances, poor internet service in the area or lack of access to affordable internet access).

    43. Before issuing a Direction, you must also take into account whether the claimant can reasonably access a DWP IAD should they either not have reasonable access to the internet or should they wish to exercise their right not to accept cookies. You will need to take into account all of the claimant’s circumstances (for example,their health, any restrictions on their availability, whether they have childcare available) and the availability of IADs in your office. For example, if your office has:

    not yet installed any IADs; or

    a high number of claimants who need access to a DWP IAD. For example because they:

    do not have access to the internet; or

    are required to use UJ and wish to exercise their choices relating to cookies.

    4. All these considerations must be taken into account before deciding to issue a Jobseeker’s Direction. If one or more of the circumstances in the previous paragraphs apply and you deem it is unreasonable for the claimant to use Universal Jobmatch, you must:

    record why it is not reasonable to issue a Direction, for example,“Claimant not using Universal Jobmatch – English as a second language” or “Claimantnot using Universal Jobmatch – does not wish to accept cookies and claimant has no reasonable access to an IAD” in the ‘Additional Notes’ field within the‘More’ hotspot on LMS; and

    select the ‘Pilots’ Hotspot on LMS; (or where the ‘Pilots’ Hotspot is not shown, you will need to select the ‘New Initiative’ Hotspot and select‘Pilots’ from the dropdown menu list); then from the next window find the ‘UJ Pilot Marker’ option; then select ‘No UJ account’ from the dropdown menu list and select the [Save] button.

    45. Both these actions are required so you do not keep asking the claimant each time they attend at the office.

    46. In cases where a direction is not reasonable you will need to review the claimant's jobsearch activity using other means.

    Without having to go into minute details about the interpretation of those paragraphs suffice it to say that the bold statement or assertion that opening a GG Account or registering with UJ is mandatory is a false statement unless that statement is qualified and that will depend on the skill and determination of the qualifier.


    I don't think that it is necessary to enter into a long diatribe on allowing access to personal UJ Account if one has decided to create one. Chapter 2, Paragraph 40 and Chapter 3. Paragraph 92 speaks for itself.

    40. You also cannot issue a Jobseeker’s Direction to mandate a claimant to give us access to their account – this is their decision not ours.

    Actively Seeking Employment

    92. We cannot specify to a JSA claimant how they provide us with records of their jobsearch activity and Universal Jobmatch will not change this – it is not therefore possible to require JSA claimants to give DWP access to their Universal Jobmatch account.


    It is unlikely that you will come across an adviser who is competent enough, far less prepared, to give you a counter argument.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by honeybee13 View Post
    Jasta, given the government's history on IT, I can't see it being anytime soon.

    HB
    Me neither! We can but hope it dies a death soon after introduction..probably after the first major malfunction which causes 100,000 people to not get their money through on time.

    Found a FOIicon request dated end of 2014 which gives all the guides issued to JC staff on the purpose of electronic pads. Worth a read; the first document states quite clearly that they're to be used for payment processing...of course as we all know, it's what the DWP don't put in their guidance that's always more important.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...g_pad_guidance


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Lapsed Workaholic View Post
    3 If the jobseeker does not have a Government Gateway Account, they will need to create one in order to receive the full benefits of UJ.
    [...]
    The use and abuse of cookies is another good reason why one should be wary of using UJ.
    Tip: Turn off all cookies, then try to login to your GGA and take a screenshot of the result. Last time I tried, it produced a wonderfully cryptic error message that would be sure to confuse many

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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Although not directly on topic i received a newsletter from the Open Rights Group which links to a news story regarding surveillance of job seekers
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk:80/tech...aste-of-money/

    They might get the fact of law correct before they post non accurate guff like in the link
    This in particular,since when ? the DWP, rules don't specify the amount of job apps or how much time they must spend each week looking for work
    It ignores the fact that in the current system, jobseekers have to provide proof they've applied to five jobs a week or risk losing their benefits.



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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    "........ in the current system, jobseekers have to provide proof they've applied to five jobs a week or risk losing their benefits."

    You are quite right Tommy, that it not true, therefore it is not a fact. There is no requirement in law for a job seeker to apply for a specific number of jobs per week. Indeed there is no requirement to apply for any.

    What is a true fact is that in the current system advisers get away with insisting on including in claimants' Jobseeker's Agreements a specific number of jobs to apply for each week or risk losing their benefits.

    An interesting article overall though, grateful to you for bringing it to our attention since it gives an opportunity to highlight another issue where advisers, their managers, and DWP generally administer the current system in defiance of what the law says the current system actually is, and that, basically, is what the discussion we are having here is all about.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    I bet ,well i know that if you went in the job centre to sign on or for one of their appointments (hoop jumping exercise) armed with a video camera that the G4S goons would stop you from filming or ask you to leave the building, Why, if they have nothing to fear because they are doing no wrong do they want to stop you recording your interview, apart from respecting the advisers privacy if they request that you don't show their face ,what is the problem? you as far as i'm aware are not breaking any laws
    Or would they play the it could be used by terrorists if uploaded to the likes of you tube card ?
    A bit like the police trying to stop people filming /taking pictures of them when they are in public places But that was mainly due to their ignorance of the laws of the land same would apply to private security goons who think they are above the law

    This guy https://www.youtube.com/user/cveitch/videos
    And https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ualentertainer

    Although i may not agree with all their views have done some good videos that highlight this , quest to control people by making up the rules as they see fit



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    Posts : 687 (0.53 post per day)

    Default Re: Universal Jobmatch - Help Needed

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy456 View Post
    I bet ,well i know that if you went in the job centre to sign on or for one of their appointments (hoop jumping exercise) armed with a video camera that the G4S goons would stop you from filming or ask you to leave the building, Why, if they have nothing to fear because they are doing no wrong do they want to stop you recording your interview, apart from respecting the advisers privacy if they request that you don't show their face ,what is the problem? you as far as i'm aware are not breaking any laws
    Or would they play the it could be used by terrorists if uploaded to the likes of you tube card ?
    A bit like the police trying to stop people filming /taking pictures of them when they are in public places But that was mainly due to their ignorance of the laws of the land same would apply to private security goons who think they are above the law

    This guy https://www.youtube.com/user/cveitch/videos
    And https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ualentertainer

    Although i may not agree with all their views have done some good videos that highlight this , quest to control people by making up the rules as they see fit
    I agree with you this time Terry, we are now veering off topic.

    However much or little we might sympathise with your views in this regard, this is not the place to kick off campaigns or promote activities such as those you are advocating whose only ultimate result is invariably to attract the police and have the perpetrators branded as anarchists of some sort. Plays straight into the hands of those who already think we should be allowed to starve.

    Having said that, I record all appointments using a recording device that I keep hidden in my pocket. I pick up everything that's said. Not particularly bothered that I don't have video pictures of their ugly puss.



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