Hi guys looking for advice.

I have 3 outstanding council tax bills with my (ex) local council.

I have since moved away from the area.

The bailiffs have started at the mother in laws chasing the debt.

After speaking on the phone, they've said they have been chasing this since may 2014,

have had no payment, and no arrangements made.

According to the office, 'its gone too far for a payment plan' and are demanding full payment.

Yet the bailiff has said if I pay x amount, then a plan can be put in place.

Below is breakdown of amounts ect:- original bill in bracket

Bill 1 is £790.10 (480.10)

Bill 2 is £558.69 (320.)

Bill 3 is £285.79 (169.35)

Bailiff says I have to pay the 790.10, and can then set up a plan on the rest (contradicting the office)

This was last week.

I said give me a few days and I'll try and raise the money.

Now all three accounts have me and my partners name on,

but one of them has the brother in law too,

as he was on the tenancy (although he wasn't liable for our bills, he paid board money)

in my eyes, it's not fair for him to be involved in this mess, and have bailiffs threatening his car for the bill.

His name is on the 558 bill.

when I realised this last night,

I called the bailiff today with the intention of paying £600 which is what I managed to get hold off.

But I wanted the account with the brother in laws name on clearing first, to remove him from the troubles.

The bailiff has said that's not possible.

I have to clear the £790, or £850 to clear the other two accounts, and leave the 790 on instalments.

When I queried why this was the case, he said it's just how they're paired up??

He won't except £600 and instalments on the rest, as it's gone too far for that??

His deal is his deal and he won't change it was his words.

I also rang the local council direct, they informed me that there is a 350 bill outstanding also, not yet with rossendales.

So, the total debt currently being chased by rossendales is approximately £1634 including fees.

The total tax due to the council, (including the bill not yet with rossendales) is £1320.

Now, if i could deal direct with the council, I could clear 50% of the debt.

And arrange approx 100 a month thereafter to clear the remainder.

What I'm particularly looking for help with is,

Is there anyway the council are going to deal direct with me?

Is the amount of fees that rossendales have added legit?

What would happen if I used the automated service and tried to pay the original bill, that the brother in law is tied too,

direct to the council, and what would happen about the charges then that rossendales have added?

The council were also able to look at rossendales files while I was on the phone to them, does that mean that they are in fact part of the council?

I have had many more questions running through my head all day,

and as I've come to write this, I can't remember them all!

And also, I apologise if it doesn't make sense!

My head has been fried today!

I'm not trying to avoid this debt,

I'm simply trying to do the best I can!

The most recent letters from the bailiffs were 'final notices'

The bailiff said he will take the £600 that I've got, but it will not stop further action on removal of goods, as it's not the amount he said I had to pay.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, as I need to continue trying to resolve this tomorrow

Many thanks in advance

Bump

In order to properly advise it will be necessary to know the following:

What council tax year's each debt is for.

The amount of each Liability Order.

The amount of fees applied to each and a breakdown of the fees.

The reason for the above questions is because on 6th April last year new regulations came into effect and there is now a fixed fee scale but the fees in your case would be affected by any fees applied to the accounts before 6th April this year.

One highly important point of the new fee scale is that a bailiff cannot apply 'multiple fee' for enforcing each of the above accounts.

PS: The bailiff should be able to give you this info but so too should the local authority.

Hi, thanks for your reply.

I've spoke to the local council this morning basically, the bills are as follows, with fees in brackets.

480.10 liability order 15/8/14 ( plus 75 compliance, 235 enforcement)

320.00 liability order 22/11/11 (plus 75 compliance 163.69 enforcement)

139.41 liability order 16/8/11 (plus 75 compliance 71.31 enforcement)

Then, there's two bills outstanding with the council that are NOT with bailiffs.

350.95 liability order 21/3/14

29.94 liability order 21/3/11

The bailiff said that the fees are normal set out. There's no multiple charges. The single bill 480.10 has the enforcement fee in full on it, the other two accounts that are paired have the enforcement fee split between the two.

I again made him an offer of 660 and the remainder on a monthly plan. He refused.

I then called the council back, as she asked me too of he refused it. I've now come to an arrangement with the council to send 660 direct to them. They will then TELL the bailiffs to accept my 80 a month untill the debt is clear. The 2 bills that aren't with bailiffs yet, the council have said that they can wait untill I have paid up the bailiffs, and then I can pay them bills direct to them. No action will be taken on them accounts while I'm paying the bailiffs.

I can't pay off the account with the brother in law on directly to get him out the picture. But if I set this plan of 660, then 80 a month thereafter, and stick to it. He's not at risk.

The lady at the council was very helpful to be honest.

My only query now is are the bailiffs fees Legit?

3 x compliance fees 1 for each account,

And 2 x enforcement fees (one for the first debt, and one for the second debt which consists of 2 council tax bills)

The bailiffs would of course say that their fees are legit. And the Council will usually back up that statement because the bailiffs told them that the fees were legit.

However bailiffs lie

I understand that some of those L/Os are for a different address. If so and the bailiffs have written to your previous address after you left and you

knew nothing about them till they came to your new address then you may have not been given the statutory minimum 7 clear days notice of enforcement

for each of those debts and therefore all the charges relating to those particular L/Os should be cancelled.I doubt you will get the bailiffs to agree

but tough that is the Law.

The law is that you should receive 7 clear days notice from the bailiffs asking that you contact them to pay the debt or come to an agreement to

pay the debt over a period of time. Should you fail to contact them then they can come to your property with a view to taking your goods and

for that they can charge £235. But they can only do that if you have had sufficient prior notice which you don't appear to have been given.

The bailiffs will argue that they did write to you but as their mail went to the wrong address, you have not been given the statutory notice. As a

side note, the bailiffs would know that you had moved so it is their own stupidity that they have broken the Law by enforcing a debt that possibly

you had not known that bailiffs were involved.

No doubt you will have other posters here will add to this but you will have to explain this to the Council. In addition, please check with the Council

which address the L/Os were issued to originally and have they since been changed to reflect your new address.

From what I see of things they may charge the Compliance Fee (£75) for each Liability Order but only 1 Enforcement Fee (£235) no matter how many Liability Orders are involved. Appears to be creative accounting from Rossendales unless the Bailiff is thinking he can keep it.

Hi guys, thanks for your reply.

The letters were sent to a previous address as I no longer live in the district. I'm now living in temporary holiday let as I relocated in august untill I move into a proper residential property in march. All recent dealings have gone to my mother inlaws which is where my brother in law lives temporarily too. Although he hasn't confirmed to the bailiffs that it's him that lives there.

I have made a payment direct to the council, of 660 pound, who are now instructing the bailiffs to hold any action for 10 days while the payments clear, and will then tell them they have to accept my 80 pound a month plan. They've also said that me paying the council direct doesn't mean I accept the bailiffs charges. All calls have been recorded since the bailiff started to refuse my offer.

Hi, hope you don't mind me asking, but which council is this?

The council appear to be reasonable and well done for clearing such a large amount today. The second enforcement fee is split over two accounts and if this is the way that Rossendale's want to deal with their internal accounting they can do this.

HOWEVER.......

The fact is that the new bailiff regulations are clear is that only one 'enforcement' fee may be added and you need to speak with the council on Monday to ask that they investigate why two fees are being charged. It should be removed.

The Compliance Fee of £75 is able to be charged on each account.

Please do post back once you have spoken with the local authority.

It's telford and wrekin council

The council appear to be reasonable and well done for clearing such a large amount today. The second enforcement fee is split over two accounts and if this is the way that Rossendale's want to deal with their internal accounting they can do this.

 

HOWEVER.......

 

The fact is that the new bailiff regulations are clear is that only one 'enforcement' fee may be added and you need to speak with the council on Monday to ask that they investigate why two fees are being charged. It should be removed.

 

The Compliance Fee of £75 is able to be charged on each account.

 

Please do post back once you have spoken with the local authority.

Thanks for the advice about the enforcement fee, I will certainly look into this. Is there anywhere I can find the legislation that states only one enforcement fee can be charged? Cuz If i can remove this, then that's the equivalent of 3 monthly payments I won't need to make

Thanks again

Hi its sectiom 11 of the taking contrp of goods fees regulations

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/regulation/11/made

11.—(1) This regulation applies for the purpose of calculating the fees and disbursements payable to the enforcement agent in accordance with regulations 4, 8, 9 and 10 in a case where—

(a)the enforcement agent receives instructions to use the procedure under Schedule 12 in relation to the same debtor but in respect of more than one enforcement power; and

(b)those enforcement powers can reasonably be exercised at the same time.

(2) In paragraph (1)(b), “can reasonably be exercised at the same time” means in particular—

(a)taking control of goods in relation to all such enforcement powers on the same occasion; and

(b)selling or disposing of all goods so taken into control on the same occasion,

except where it is impracticable to do so.

(3) The enforcement agent may recover the compliance stage fee in respect of each enforcement power to which the instructions relate.

(4) Where paragraph (1) applies, the fee recoverable in respect of the enforcement stage (or stages) and the sale or disposal stage respectively is to be calculated as follows—

(a)the fixed fee for each stage may be recovered only once regardless of the number of enforcement powers to which the instructions relate;

(b)the amount in relation to which the percentage fee for each stage, if any, is to be calculated is the total amount of the sums to be recovered under all enforcement powers to which paragraph (1) applies.

(5) Where this regulation applies, the enforcement agent must, as far as practicable, minimise the disbursements recoverable from the debtor under these Regulations by dealing with the goods taken into control pursuant to the instructions together and on as few occasions as possible.

That's great. Would you suggest goin to the council about this, or the bailiffs? And are there consequences that can be applied due to them not following regulations?

Thanks

Just an observation

Should there not be only 1 £75 compliance fee for 2014

and 2 X 42.50 for the 2011 accounts ?

and the £163.69 and £71.31. can not be enforcement charges as on the old system,

Just an observation

Should there not be only 1 £75 compliance fee for 2014

and 2 X 42.50 for the 2011 accounts ?

and the £163.69 and £71.31. can not be enforcement charges as on the old system,

I'm not sure, I'm not clued up at all on bailiff fees, hopefully some one can clarify this?

I'm not sure, I'm not clued up at all on bailiff fees, hopefully some one can clarify this?

No the fees are correct as the regs apply to when the case was passed for enforcement not when the liability order was issued

No the fees are correct as the regs apply to when the case was passed for enforcement not when the liability order was issued

They were passed to bailiffs in may

I still think that you should not be liable for the bailiff fees if the first that you heard that the bailiffs were after you was from your brother in law. You

must receive a Notice of Enforcement prior to any action which gives you 7 clear days to respond. If you didn't get that then they cannot charge

you.

There is also the serious breach of the Data Protection Act- discussing your debts with your brother in law [apart from the one where he is named

on the L/O].

I still think that you should not be liable for the bailiff fees if the first that you heard that the bailiffs were after you was from your brother in law. You

must receive a Notice of Enforcement prior to any action which gives you 7 clear days to respond. If you didn't get that then they cannot charge

you.

There is also the serious breach of the Data Protection Act- discussing your debts with your brother in law [apart from the one where he is named

on the L/O].

Hmm... I'm not sure what I need to do next. I have a few days in which I can dispute the fees before I will have to accept them and start a payment arrangement to prevent further action.how can I find out if I am in a definite position to challenge the fees? And the legislation needed to back this up? And how do I go about starting this dispute and with Who?

No the fees are correct as the regs apply to when the case was passed for enforcement not when the liability order was issued

If this is the case then there should only be one enforcement fee, something does not add up right

Mickeyj87 you can still dispute the fees after you have paid them [i think you have up to 6 years to reclaim] but most people would prefer not to have

to pay the disputed ones in the first place.

Your first point of call is a letter to the CEO of the council and stating in the letter [or email] that it is a stage one complaint. [by writing to the CEO

you bypass the lesser human beings who work for capita ].

You then lay out your argument that you knew nothing about the bailiffs until you had a phone call from you brother in law. Bailiffs may well have

written to your previous address but you have never received any correspondence from them at your current address. So for them to demand

immediate payment is in breach of your statutory rights under The Control of Goods Regulations 2013 Part 2 section 6

Minimum period of notice

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), notice of enforcement must be given to the debtor not less than 7 clear days before the enforcement agent takes control of the debtor’s goods. (2) Where the period referred to in paragraph (1) includes a Sunday, bank holiday, Good Friday or Christmas Day that day does not count in calculating the period.

As you have never received their Notice of Enforcement the bailiff company was wrong to demand payment from you and as such you understand

that the proper procedure is to cancel all the fees and issue a Notice of Enforcement giving you 7 clear days notice.

Then move on to the Data Protection Act and seriously complain that the Enforcement Agent [bailiff to you and me] divulged your debts to your

brother in Law. In addition this is also in breach of The Taking-Control-of Goods-National -Standards [there is a copy at the top of the bailiffs page

in the yellow stickies]

Professionalism and conduct of the enforcement agent

19. Enforcement agents must act within the law at all times, including all legislation and observe all health and safety requirements in carrying out enforcement. They must maintain strict client confidentiality and comply with Data Protection legislation and, where appropriate, the Freedom of Information Act.

Ask that a thorough investigation takes place over these matters and you would be grateful if all bailiff action is put on hold until the investigation is concluded and you are notified of the outcome.

You could also add that while the legislation allows for the Enforcement fee of £75 to be charged for each L/O there can only be one charge for the

Taking Control of Goods [£235] and the bailiff has charged you twice.

As this botched operation is ultimately the responsibility of the Council you would appreciate an acceptable outcome especially as you have already

paid off £660.

Mickeyj87 you can still dispute the fees after you have paid them [i think you have up to 6 years to reclaim] but most people would prefer not to have

to pay the disputed ones in the first place.

 

Your first point of call is a letter to the CEO of the council and stating in the letter [or email] that it is a stage one complaint. [by writing to the CEO

you bypass the lesser human beings who work for capita ].

 

You then lay out your argument that you knew nothing about the bailiffs until you had a phone call from you brother in law. Bailiffs may well have

written to your previous address but you have never received any correspondence from them at your current address. So for them to demand

immediate payment is in breach of your statutory rights under The Control of Goods Regulations 2013 Part 2 section 6

Minimum period of notice

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), notice of enforcement must be given to the debtor not less than 7 clear days before the enforcement agent takes control of the debtor’s goods. (2) Where the period referred to in paragraph (1) includes a Sunday, bank holiday, Good Friday or Christmas Day that day does not count in calculating the period.

 

As you have never received their Notice of Enforcement the bailiff company was wrong to demand payment from you and as such you understand

that the proper procedure is to cancel all the fees and issue a Notice of Enforcement giving you 7 clear days notice.

 

Then move on to the Data Protection Act and seriously complain that the Enforcement Agent [bailiff to you and me] divulged your debts to your

brother in Law. In addition this is also in breach of The Taking-Control-of Goods-National -Standards [there is a copy at the top of the bailiffs page

in the yellow stickies]

Professionalism and conduct of the enforcement agent

19. Enforcement agents must act within the law at all times, including all legislation and observe all health and safety requirements in carrying out enforcement. They must maintain strict client confidentiality and comply with Data Protection legislation and, where appropriate, the Freedom of Information Act.

Ask that a thorough investigation takes place over these matters and you would be grateful if all bailiff action is put on hold until the investigation is concluded and you are notified of the outcome.

 

You could also add that while the legislation allows for the Enforcement fee of £75 to be charged for each L/O there can only be one charge for the

Taking Control of Goods [£235] and the bailiff has charged you twice.

 

As this botched operation is ultimately the responsibility of the Council you would appreciate an acceptable outcome especially as you have already

paid off £660.

Thanks lookingforinfo... Only one question now.. How do I get the CEO contact details? Is this the CEO of the council? Or council tax department?

Thanks again guys!

It's the CEO of your Council, if not on here http://www.ceoemail.com/uk-councils.php it ashould be on your Council website.

It's the CEO of your Council, if not on here http://www.ceoemail.com/uk-councils.php it ashould be on your Council website.

Got it! Thanks.. I'll be sending an email Monday!

If it were me I would write & send it now so it is there for first thing Monday. I would also be contacting my local Councillor(s) this weekend so they can also "interfere" on Monday, my view is that Councillors are available 7 days per week up until approx 9pm and best initial contact is by phone - find yours from https://www.writetothem.com/