Hi, i wonder if anyone could advise please A friend of mine has been on a secondment for just over 3 years and has been told that a new person from another department is being given his job as a permanent role . my questions are : 1/ is there a rule that if someone has been on a secondment for a period of time they are meant to be offered the job ? somone has mentioned longer than 2 years , others have said 4 years ? 2/ if the person on the secondment is being replaced by someone , who is being given the role as a permanent job - shouldnt the job have at least been internally advertised ? 3/ i have also heard something about custom and practise , but not really sure what that means or how that would affect it ?

1. no

2. no

3. It doesn't.

Does your friend have a permanent role to go back to?

Secondments can't last more than 2 years for tax reasons (HMRC EIM32080), but that's really more about HMRC definitions of 'temporary workplace' and travel expenses.

A collection of consecutive temporary contracts exceeding 2 years would automatically make the staff member a permanent employee, but again that's more about protection of employment rights in a place of employment than being guaranteed a particular role.

'Custom and practice' as a convention by which, if something happens for long enough, even if it isn't in the contract, it is as though it is - i.e. 'I've been working from home every Friday afternoon for 3 years and my ex-manager said it was ok'. I would agree that it is probably irrelevant in this case, as a secondment, by it's very definition, must be expected to end at some point.

I think Emmzzi's question about a permanent role to go back to is important... have they lost their job or been returned to their old role? If the former, then they'd potentially have a case, if not, then I'd say it really depends on what has been said to him/her.

I would argue that there is some grounds to argue that the employee could have had some reasonable expectation that they would be made permanent - 3 years is a long time to do a job. What discussions were had about the future of the OP's friend? Were they led to believe that they'd be given the role? Is there anything in writing? Were any performance issues raised?

All they could really do would be to raise it as a grievance and if they don't get the answer they wanted, take it from there. I think it's highly unlikely that they will give them the job back, although the emp'er might agree to look at how they operate in the future. If they were then so upset that they felt that the relationship was irreparably damaged (and it was the fault of the employer), they could resign and try to claim for constructive dismissal, however, they would need to take some proper legal advice before they did that and not sure what they'd get out of it tbh.

(N/B - I am a corporate poster, but not in the employment law industry. This is purely my own opinion and shouldn't be taken for advice or anything more than a pointer towards where you can look for more detailed info).

Thanks for the replies

They have a permanent job to go back to although approx £8,000 a year less in pay , they are more annoyed by the fact that the job they have been doing for over 3 years has not been advertised as a permanent position and suddenly they find out there secondment is being ended and someone with no knowledge of the role is being brought in , trained to do it and given it as a permanent position . I have told them that they should contact there unions legal help line and request an urgent meeting with HR , accompanied by a senior union rep

(the only reason i can think of why this person is being given the job as a permanent role is possibly them being displaced as there current job no longer exists and the organisation trying to avoid redundancy ? )

Then they should have a read of the company's employment, equality and change procedures policies to see if they are supposed to advertise/offer. As always, there are probably exceptions but it does seem odd that when someone is seconded and paid a higher salary for that secondment there isnt a resettling period back to the old job. Did they get a pay rise during the secondment period because if they did that probably changed their conditions of service to be that role so the position would be considered permanent.

No, they didnt get a payrise apart from when the secondment started and shifting from there old role to the new one . We get yearly increments and my employer dishes out secondments rather than let people apply for the job as a full time role, that way they can keep save money. (secondement = no yearly pay increase )

The secondments usually get advertised as 6 months in length but nearly always get extended . in fact one of my workmates was on a secondment for 7 years before they finally gave him the job full time !!

(the only reason i can think of why this person is being given the job as a permanent role is possibly them being displaced as there current job no longer exists and the organisation trying to avoid redundancy ? )

Well, that would be a legitimate reason for giving them this role. Legally you can they 'bump' someone out of a role to give it to someone at risk of redundancy (if the person being moved into the role is returning after maternity leave for example.) Although it's not nice for your friend, at least this way, everyone has a role, even if its not the one they wanted. If there was a redundancy situation, during the consultation a list of potential vacancies would be drawn up and it could've included secondments if they wanted to - I've known people at risk to take take even temporary roles on to delay redundancy, hoping something else would come up. If this was the case, it doesn't seem to have been handled very well.

I meant to ask, are we sure that the new appointee is permanent?

yes , the new appointee is permanent.

we have had similar in the past . There was 2 positions advertised for a quite well paid role, people were short listed , and then told the positions were no longer available ! two people whose jobs were defunct were slotted straight in as we have a no redundancy policy (or so it seems ! - we have had people whose roles/jobs ceased to exist through restructures and they have "made up" a role for them to keep them on until retirement i.e. in charge of charity collections etc , rather than pay out large redundancy packages - and to be fair the ones who have a job "invented" for them have normally been employed for 35 years or thereabouts and on a very high salary , so probably is cheaper to keep them employed for there last couple of years )

no redundancies policy seems very benevolent. Not such an awful employer then...

Emmzzi

its the joys of working for the NHS

As you say, common in NHS and govt. The big saving is on avoidance of having a rationalisation and change exercise to look at the redundancy issue as they will have to look at every person in the affected roles, similar jobs throughout the country and try and offer them a "fair" opportunity to take up a post in the organisation. With 1.3 million employees that could be a nightmare if a small error in deciding who is or isnt affected is made and someone cries foul. I have known of people being on secondment for 15 years so your is not an isolated case but I must say that the salary drop is one of the biggest. Have seen it where a department manager has been dropped down to lab cleaner for the last 6 months of their employment as it didnt affect the pension when they retired immediately afterwards.