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unloading between 2 different signs


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Hi guys,

 

So this case was a bit awkward.

Actually it happened today (Saturday) around 8:30am when I was unloading my van between 2 signs with different restrictions which makes me a bit confused.

1 Sign had written "No loading Mon - Fri Xam - Xpm" and the other one had written "No loading Saturday 8am - 10pm" and throughout the footpath I had the single yellow line with the vertical single yellow line.

Do I have any ground to appeal in this case? As I was in the middle (between) of this 2 different signs

 

Thanks in advance!

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Looking on Google Street View, the yellow line is continuous and there is no change in restrictions between the signs. This is how they look:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55000[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55001[/ATTACH]

 

Both the same. Have they changed since then?

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Looking on Google Street View, the yellow line is continuous and there is no change in restrictions between the signs. This is how they look:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55000[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]55001[/ATTACH]

 

Both the same. Have they changed since then?

 

the pictures from google maps are not really updated but I was checking the photo evidences that CEO uploaded and he didn't upload the one that says "no loading Saturday" he just uploaded the one with the yellow vertical line...I've attached that picture!

 

Do you think I have any chance to challenge this one?

 

mt4gef.jpg

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It all depends on the signs and markings. We know there's a loading ban there - the single yellow and kerb chevrons tell us that much. The issue here is whether the signage is incorrect or misleading. I've not seen it - I think you will need to try and get images, not only to post here but to submit as part of an appeal. They will want to see that the signs said two different things, because obviously, they aren't supposed to (unless there is a clear change of restrictions also marked out).

 

Can you obtain any up to date images? Have you checked with the Council whether they have any more images taken by the CEO, which they could send you?

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those are the photos that he uploaded and I'll try to get some more when I actually have that chance... but from the signage I supposed to be allowed to load/unload on Saturday or am I wrong?

 

2ahw2yu.jpg

 

n3xlao.jpg

 

mcyrs3.jpg

 

15zig7t.jpg

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those are the photos that he uploaded and I'll try to get some more when I actually have that chance... but from the signage I supposed to be allowed to load/unload on Saturday or am I wrong?

 

According to that sign, you are right. But what about the other sign, and which restriction were you subject to? (If there are two, it's possible the CEO photographed the wrong sign.)

 

What I suspect happened is that the CEO judged there to be no loading going on. That's just a guess, but would seem most likely. Therefore you would have been ticketed for being parked there, contravening the regulation stated on the yellow part of the sign.

 

How much observation time is there on the PCN? Five minutes? And what were you doing in that time?

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According to that sign, you are right. But what about the other sign, and which restriction were you subject to? (If there are two, it's possible the CEO photographed the wrong sign.)

 

What I suspect happened is that the CEO judged there to be no loading going on. That's just a guess, but would seem most likely. Therefore you would have been ticketed for being parked there, contravening the regulation stated on the yellow part of the sign.

 

How much observation time is there on the PCN? Five minutes? And what were you doing in that time?

 

I was unloading goods at the time and the observation probably was around 3/4 minutes as he was just passing by therefore I might have grounds to challenge this ticket

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You said there were two different signs. Were there?

 

I meant, what observation times are stated on the PCN? Clearly you couldn't have been seen to be unloading during the observation time - that time is to observe the unattended vehicle. If you'd returned during that time, he wouldn't have issued the PCN and you'd have seen him and presumably said something. So, how long was the vehicle observed, according to the PCN, and what were you doing during that time?

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You said there were two different signs. Were there?

 

I meant, what observation times are stated on the PCN? Clearly you couldn't have been seen to be unloading during the observation time - that time is to observe the unattended vehicle. If you'd returned during that time, he wouldn't have issued the PCN and you'd have seen him and presumably said something. So, how long was the vehicle observed, according to the PCN, and what were you doing during that time?

 

At the time I was unloading he was passing by and he wrote me the ticket straight away so I suppose he thought I couldn't unload until 10am on Saturday.

I came back today to the street I've been fined and I've noticed both signs are now the same. I took a picture from the sign I thought it was different and apparently they put a sticker over saying "Mon-Fri" :p

Assuming that the CEO forgot to take picture of this sign I reckon I can challenge this one as it's not prohibited to unloading/loading on Saturday

 

 

260680y.jpg

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02 Parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street where waiting and loading/unloading restrictions are in force

 

 

parked w/b re the single yellow and its sign ie mon-sat 7-7. are they arguing you were parked?

loading/un w/b re the sign as looks as is single yellow kerb marking not double, so as per the sign. ie mon-fri.

if loading/un, and also no end marking between the differing signs re days, then poss a shout for an appeal?

as jamberson points, wldn't they have to observe to see what was going on?

some info

http://www.which.co.uk/documents/pdf/parking-guide-296086.pdf

http://www.which.co.uk/cars/driving/driving-advice/how-to-appeal-a-parking-ticket/

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You were there on Saturday, unloading.

 

The sign says you may do this. If the council are going to uphold the PCN, then they will need to make the case that the restriction was different on the day to how it is now.

 

For that to be true, 1) the Traffic Order for the street would have had to have changed since you were there; and 2) the different restrictions on the day would need to be separated by some markings.

 

It really sounds like the CEO judged you to be parked - but then he should have given an observation time on the PCN of a few minutes.

 

The council's case looks shaky to me.

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You were there on Saturday, unloading.

 

The sign says you may do this. If the council are going to uphold the PCN, then they will need to make the case that the restriction was different on the day to how it is now.

 

For that to be true, 1) the Traffic Order for the street would have had to have changed since you were there; and 2) the different restrictions on the day would need to be separated by some markings.

 

It really sounds like the CEO judged you to be parked - but then he should have given an observation time on the PCN of a few minutes.

 

The council's case looks shaky to me.

 

Exactly! I don't know how can I prove I was unloading at the time but I will challenge saying that no observation time was made, which is insufficient for the CEO to ascertain whether loading/unloading is taking place plus at the time I was unloading goods to the property on Saturday and the signage on that place doesn't forbid me to unloading/loading on that day.

 

34fh20j.jpg

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Yes, I would do that too.

 

State clearly that you were loading. State that the signs permitted this (if the council challenge this, they will be effectively invalidating the restriction by claiming signage which would have been unenforceable). State that no observation time was given, and that your loading was continuous. They don't have much of a case.

 

I'm assuming you and the CEO did not converse?

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Yes, I would do that too.

 

State clearly that you were loading. State that the signs permitted this (if the council challenge this, they will be effectively invalidating the restriction by claiming signage which would have been unenforceable). State that no observation time was given, and that your loading was continuous. They don't have much of a case.

 

I'm assuming you and the CEO did not converse?

 

Thanks guys! I will challenge the PCN and update here the result

 

Have a happy new year

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  • 1 month later...

OK, so wait for the Notice to Owner, then fight on. I really don't see what they are getting at - whichever way you look at it, you were entitled to be there for unloading. If they think you weren't unloading, they need to give you an observation time.

 

When the Notice to Owner comes, re-state the case and quote from their letter, about the loading thing. They have shot themselves in the foot by declaring you to be in contravention of a loading restriction, which we all know was not in force. Add a copy of the sign and draw a ring around it!

 

I really think you will win this if you continue.

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OK, so wait for the Notice to Owner, then fight on. I really don't see what they are getting at - whichever way you look at it, you were entitled to be there for unloading. If they think you weren't unloading, they need to give you an observation time.

 

When the Notice to Owner comes, re-state the case and quote from their letter, about the loading thing. They have shot themselves in the foot by declaring you to be in contravention of a loading restriction, which we all know was not in force. Add a copy of the sign and draw a ring around it!

 

I really think you will win this if you continue.

 

Thanks Jamberson! I will challenge it to the PATAS.

So I assume if I don't pay within 14 days I will receive the notice to challenge it? What should I do now?

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pdf #20 has gone awol.

 

yes, as they say, one kerb marking means as per the sign. sign says mon - fri!

 

if they rely on that supposed mon - sat loading sign, since changed, then there wld have to be end markings and they wld need to show that. :)

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