Hi Folks,

I hadn't been to Liverpool airport in years and

went to pick up relatives at the weekend,

not realizing the new 'traffic management' was in force.

I picked my relatives up on a road leading to the carpark and was kindly warned by a local taxi driver

- I researched the parking at the airport when I got home and am expecting a PCN soon.

I want to fight these vultures every step of the way and actually have already 2 template appeals written out, one for VCS and Popla.

My question is, as I know it is recommended on here not to ignore a PCN,

would it make sense to not open the letter and write on it 'moved to France'.

Would VCS give up or pester me, or would they go down the debt collector or bailiff route?

I know I have a good chance with the standard templates appeals but just wanted to double check my strategy before I get the PCN.

Thanks in advance!

Hi Folks,

 

 

I hadn't been to Liverpool airport in years and went to pick up relatives at the weekend, not realizing the new 'traffic management' was in force. I picked my relatives up on a road leading to the carpark and was kindly warned by a local taxi driver - I researched the parking at the airport when I got home and am expecting a PCN soon.

 

 

I want to fight these vultures every step of the way and actually have already 2 template appeals written out, one for VCS and Popla.

 

My question is, as I know it is recommended on here not to ignore a PCN, would it make sense to not open the letter and write on it 'moved to France'. Would VCS give up or pester me, or would they go down the debt collector or bailiff route?

 

I know I have a good chance with the standard templates appeals but just wanted to double check my strategy before I get the PCN.

 

Thanks in advance!

You don't have a good chance with standard templates with VCS.

They are members of the IPC. Which means the ( totally un ) Independent Appeals Service and not POPLA.

Go and take photos of the signage on the site.

JLA is not relevant land as it happens anyway, so no POFA and keeper liability...

Post up the NTK and photos of signage when you get them, before you contact VCS.

who is the keeper of the vehicle and is it registered at a UK address?

If so the keeper should then identify the driver and their address in France

and make it clear that they will make a complaint to the police of attempted fraud and harassment if VCS then contact them again.

Your idea will only cause trouble for the person who receives their demands courtesy of the DVLA's database

and may well get taken to court as VCS will know that they will get a default judgement.

bailiffs on a private speculative invoice..NOT A CHANCE!!

dx

Thanks for the advice.

ericsbrother,

I am the keeper of the vehicle and UK based.

My thinking was to return the unopened letter to sender with 'moved to France' or Dublin,

somewhere outside UK jurisdiction with no specific address. Hmm, me thinks I am clutching at straws here.

Its sort of awkward re photographing the signs as I live about 40 miles away and really busy re work.

So if the land is private, do I have to legally inform VCS the details of the driver?

Sorry for all the questions, by the way.

Don't sweat it. There are some excellent defences online. Previous poster is right it's not covered as its an airport different laws. Google it. They're just chancers.

Thanks for the advice.

 

ericsbrother,

I am the keeper of the vehicle and UK based.

 

 

My thinking was to return the unopened letter to sender with 'moved to France' or Dublin,

somewhere outside UK jurisdiction with no specific address. Hmm, me thinks I am clutching at straws here.

 

You haven't received a letter.

 

 

Its sort of awkward re photographing the signs as I live about 40 miles away and really busy re work.

 

If you are that worried about an imaginary letter then you can go back and photograph the signs.

 

So if the land is private, do I have to legally inform VCS the details of the driver? No

 

Sorry for all the questions, by the way. No need to apologise...

As stated above, JLA is not relevant land for the POFA to apply.

Thanks Armadillo,

As I said on the original post, I haven't received a PCN yet but most likely will as VCS most certainly clocked my car reg and took pictures.

I am annoyed as it was 7pm, dark, wet and cold, with one of my pick ups a 7 month old baby. With loads roadworks signs on the approach road to the airport there was no chance of me reading a warning sign about 'entering into a contract, etc.

I have been researching other consumer sites in the meantime and try and get down to JLA in the next few weeks.

I really wouldn't waste your time going back there to photograph the signage at this point, especially if it's an 80 mile round trip to the airport. Save your petrol. You haven't received anything from them yet so I wouldn't bother doing anything at this stage, just wait to see if they do write to you.

If anything does arrive from them, all you need to do is just respond to them stating that the POFA does not apply in this case, and that you are not liable as the vehicle's registered keeper. End the letter by politely suggesting that they need to take the matter up with the driver concerned, and leave it at that.

Thanks for all your help.

Right! I think I have got my head around it - please correct me if I am wrong.

This is from Dept of Transport website - Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4

of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges

Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act addresses this situation. It

allows, providing certain conditions are met, the landholder to pursue the

registered keeper of a vehicle for unpaid parking charges if the registered

keeper refuses or is unable to identify the driver at the time the parking

charge was incurred. This is often referred to as “keeper liability”.

However the registered keeper cannot be liable for any unpaid parking

charges if he or she identifies the driver of the vehicle at the time the

parking charge was incurred.

The above is referring to Private land

It goes on.

4. On what type of land does

Schedule 4 apply?

The provisions in Schedule 4 are intended to apply only on private land

in England and Wales. Public highways are excluded as well as any

parking places on public land which are either provided or controlled by a

local authority (or other government body). Any land which already has

statutory controls in relation to the parking of vehicles (such as byelaws

applying to airports, ports and some railway station car parks) is also

excluded.

.................................................

So, keeper liability can be enforced for private land under Schedule 4, but not for airports. Have I got that right?

Btw, I also researched CPS website, (Combined Parking Solutions), and they name a blogger giving 'bad advice, etc, so they do monitor consumer sites.

If there are byelaws covering the land then the POFA does not apply.

Not all airports will have byelaws.

Do not believe everything ( anything? ) that you read on a PPC website...

I live in the Merseyside area and know the airport well.

It's my understanding that in order to be held liable for any breach of contract etc,

firstly, you must have read the signs and this is deemed as accepting the terms.

The approach road to Liverpool airport is a dual carriageway with a 40mph speed limit, it also has double yellow lines.

You cannot possibly read the signs at 40 mph, nor stop your vehicle to get out and read them as you would be committing an offence.

The guy at the airport sits there all day in his van ( fitted with ANPR cameras ), and as soon as your wheels stop turning you get photographed.

He has no conscience, and will book the airport staff as well as the public.

He can take as many as 100 per day.

The taxi drivers just laugh at him and say. " see you in Court ".

I'm not too well up on the IAS service,

so the others on here will give you good advice.

Good luck with your rebuttal !

Yeah, thanks for that, Armadillo.

Billys mate

- there are also roadworks on the approach carriageway with even more signs

and it is confusing for someone who is not familiar with the lay oute tha, especially in darkness and trying to find the correct parking space.

I stopped for no more than a minute,

did not block any traffic whatsoever and

due to the cold and rain, I didn't want my 7 month old grandaughter to catch a chill or worse.

I can imagine that guy sitting on his van booking everyone in sight

- the whole system is a blatant cash cow and ripping off law abiding and hard working people.

Local people and taxi drivers should show their anger like the fuel protests a few years ago,

drive round and round the complex at a very slow speed for an hour.

Thanks for your support!

As expected, I received my PCN this weekend with 3 pics of me picking up my passengers up and a close up of my reg.

The reason for the contravention was:

stopping on a roadway where stopping is prohibited.

Interestingly, there is absolutely no mention of POFA and the letter states

"Photographic evidence and data is held on file to support this claim in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998"

I am so tempted to ignore the PCN but understand this may be a bad idea.

I am thinking of appealing the notice to VCS and if that is rejected, appeal to IAS. If it goes against me, I will then ignore.

Here is my VCS appeal.

Dear Sir/Madam,

This letter disputes the parking charge notice for ‘stopping on a roadway where stopping is prohibited’ at Liverpool Airport.

Liverpool John Lennon Airport is situated on land which is subject to byelaws - thus is not "relevant land" under the terms of PoFA 2012, and as a result I am not liable as the registered keeper of the above vehicle.

I would like to request your office to send me a full detailed breakdown of genuine pre of loss on this so called 'contract' and I would like to point out that it is the operators burden of proof that the 'breach of contract' is a GPOL. I am at a complete loss myself, considering the photographs clearly show there is absolutely no other traffic and no vehicle has been blocked or hindered in any way.

Yours,

***********

Would that suffice or should I go for the other points, ie, the confusing signs plus roadworks, dark and raining, engine wasn't switched off, driver was picking up a baby, etc? The section about the burden of proof for the operator was copied from an successful appeal and that was the submission the adjudicator acted on, but not sure whether is was POPLA or IAS. Probably the former.

Thanks in advance!

former.

Thanks in advance.

If there's no mention of POFA, are they still trying to claim that you as the keeper are liable for this "debt"? It might be helpful if you could scan the NTK and post it up here, after redacting any personally identifiable details of course.

If not, you've really got two options available to you;

1. Ignore them from this point on, don't write to them or appeal to IAS. IAS is run by representatives of the IPC anyway so isn't independent in the slightest. If they decided to pursue it through the courts you could defend it by claiming that you are not liable as the keeper, and that they need to pursue the driver. However they may claim that you have not acted reasonably by ignoring their attempts to contact you.

or

2. Send a letter first to VCS denying any liability as keeper, then again to IAS if necessary. This is unlikely to be successful but IAS's decision is not legally binding on you. In other words you could ignore them after this point. Then if they did ever try to take it to court, you could show evidence that you have responded reasonably to them as far as possible and not ignored them. Of course you as keeper are under no obligation to give them the driver's details. It is for them to find that out.

confusing signs plus roadworks, dark and raining, engine wasn't switched off, driver was picking up a baby, etc?

Have found the below on Parking Prankster's blog. It applies to Luton Airport, not Liverpool JLA, and also is intended for an appeal where the are still claiming the keeper is liable under POFA. Not strictly relevant to your situation but it could be adapted a bit for your appeal to IAS, if you choose to make one;

1) Luton Airport is not 'relevant land' for the purposes of POFA 2012 as parking-related byelaws apply.

2) A short stop is not parking for the purposes of POFA 2012

3) For those two reasons, keeper liability does not apply and only the driver is liable. The parking operator has not identified the driver and therefore the charge is not applicable.

4) Any charge an operator makes for breach of contract must be a true pre-estimate of loss. The airport has lost nothing for such a short stay.

5) No contract can be said to be in place between motorist and operator. All contracts must have an offer, acceptance and consideration. All three elements are missing. There is no offer from the operator. There is no acceptance from the driver because the signage cannot be read at driving speed, so the driver cannot be said to be aware of the contractual terms. There is no consideration paid by the driver.

Scan the NTK and post it up here as a PDF after redacting your personal details, vehicle reg number, dates and times, VCS reference number etc. Do this first before you send anything to them.

A couple of points as not "relevant land" all you have to say is no keeper liability, dont bother with lack of GPEOL as that doesnt actually need explaining if there is no liability in the first place.

Secondly, they need to prove that contract was breached so need to show that their claim is exactly as stated and this means proving that where the vehicle was stopped there was a continuous sequence of events that mean the contract was formed and then broken. The wording of their claim has to match exactly with the contractual condition and the proof of breach must be for the same thing so a claim of parking on a prohibited place must show that some form of prohibition was in place. The yellow lines must them be sprcifically mentioned in the signage or as part of the byelaw otherwie the claim is meaningless and arbitrary.

The devil is always in the detail and they need to prove that both the signage is correct and its meaning has only one interpretation in law or common language.

There you go, Ericsbrother

They are not claiming keeper liability or the use of the POFA.

They only state that ' we may pursue the Registered Keeper for any Parking Charge amount that remains outstanding on the assumption that they were the driver.'

So a simple;

As registered keeper I am not liable for this charge.

Please address all further correspondence to the driver of the vehicle at the time of event.

I am under no obligation to name the driver at the time of event.

or

I was not the driver at the time of event.

Thanks Cardiff Devil, Ericsbrother & Armadillo. Sorry I haven't been on in ages - busy, busy, busy.

I have decided to go for the 2nd option and have drafted out a short letter to VCS denying keeper liability. I shall appeal to IAS if necessary and go into ignore mode if it fails.

Thanks again folks, and will update post on the reply.

Back again. As expected, my appeal to VCS has been rejected - I am now going to appeal to IAS.

Should I go for the short appeal quoting keeper liability or for the longer one set out like Cardiff Devil a few posts up on this page?

I am fully prepared to ignore all DC's if I lose again and fight my case in court if summoned.

Hope everyone had a good Chrimbo, btw.

If this progresses to the point where you need some photos of the signs, I will gladly go and take some and e-mail them to you as I live quite near to the airport.

. As expected, my appeal to VCS has been rejected - I am now going to appeal to IAS.

 

Should I go for the short appeal quoting keeper liability or for the longer one set out like Cardiff Devil a few posts up on this page?

 

I am fully prepared to ignore all DC's if I lose again and fight my case in court if summoned.

 

Hope everyone had a good Chrimbo, btw.

Doesn't really matter.

They are not claiming keeper liability are they? Post up the rejection letter please.

If you appeal to the IAS (which you don't have to) ,then they have no power over what you do regarding their ' decision ' anyway, and are anything but independent...

As keeper you are not liable and do not have to name the driver.

VCS can only chase the driver.

Here are the Bylaws;

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/198654/response/495713/attach/html/4/Byelaws%20for%20Liverpool%20John%20Lennon%20Airport.pdf.html

As you can see, Armadillo, its a bog standard reply and does not mention keeper liability at all.

It also states I raised several points in my appeal but mine was very short, simply quoting POFA and I having no legal obligation to name the driver.

Thanks for the offer re the photos,

Billy's Mate - my 'offence' was in early Nov and would be out of date if I used them. Thanks again.

Hiya folks. As expected, my appeal to V.C.S. and I.A.S. have both been rejected. I have C & P'ed the latters judgement.

"Whilst POFA 2012 does not impose any obligations to identify the driver, it does permit an operator to pursue the registered keeper of a vehicle when the driver has failed to pay their Parking Charge Notice.

The Appellant refers to the Department of Transports 'Guidance on Section 56 & schedule 4 of the P.O.F.A 2012 ' (recovery of unpaid parking charges).

Paragraph 4.1 states:

The provisions in Schedule 4 are intended to apply only on private land in England and Wales. Public highways are excluded as well as any parking places on public land which are either provided or controlled by a local authority (or other government body). Any land which already has statutory controls in relation to the parking of vehicles (such as byelaws applying to airports, ports and some railway station car parks) is also excluded.

The approach roads to John Lennon Airport is private land. I have had sight of a statement which confirms who the landowner is.

The Appellant has referred to a byelaw and supplied a document in support. I note that it was issued by Merseyside County Council which ceased to exist in 1986. The document is undated and does not specify what bylaws apply to what land. It would not be unreasonable to conclude that the bylaw referred to was issued prior to 1986. And based on what the Appellant has submitted, there is no way of determining the area to which the byelaws apply.

However, the current airport occupies a different site to that which previously existed. Applying my personal knowledge there is now a hotel, gym and restaurant on or around the old airport site.

I therefore conclude that there is no evidence to support the Appellant's contention that byelaws apply to the private land in question.

The provisions of Schedule 4 POFA 2012 therefore do apply and the Parking Charge Notice was validly issued.

The appeal is therefore dismissed.

*************

I did not supply my phone number on the online appeal and will not be responding to any Debt Collector or VCS correspondence unless it contains official court papers. Gonna be a long battle but the ball is in their court now!

What a bunch of incompatent muppets the IAS are. They have got their statemnts on law stood on its head, the burden of proof lies with VCS to show that it is velevant land and just because someobody has been to a gym doesnt change a byelaw. I think I will try that one next time I travel to Luton Airport, I will tell the train Operator that I dont have to buy a ticket because the laws on train travel predate the building of Luton Airport Parkway station so dont count. I bet the magistrates will laugh their socks off at that one.

My only worry is thet VCS may belive the cr*p from IAS is actually true and so place you in the position of having to waste more time fighting off their next attempt to collect money that isnt due.

It will do no-one any good in the long run.