Hi all,

I'm after some advice on steps to take to try and recoup 60k we have lost after a dreadful experience with a cowboy builder.

We entered a contract with a large, London based loft company almost a year ago now. They drew up plans for a loft conversion and ground floor extension for our two bed house. We had just started a family and had a son, who is now seventeen months old. We found a one bed flat to rent nearby for the duration of the build, which was expected to be 12 weeks.

The company assigned a builder (Robert) who seemed decent and dedicated. Because of the height and shape of the roof on our house, the loft conversion required the builders to drop the first floor ceiling height- no big issue, as plenty of people in our road have done that for their loft conversions.

Work started in February this year. Unfortunately, after taking the roof of and starting to demolish the first floor ceiling, the builders told us that the designs drawn up by the loft company had not taken account of the full height of the house and that to allow for our loft conversion, not only would the loft ceiling height be 2m but the first floor as well. This would render our house unmarketable if we ever decide to sell! We complained to the loft company who sent a senior rep to the house who's opening line was "if you're considering legal action, we've got lots of projects on, so can easily brush off 50k in legal fees." The rep suggested raising the height of the roof to add height- which would be against planning, as the house is semi-detached! Robert the builder said the best solution would be to lower the ground floor ceiling as well, so the house was levelled up and the first floor ceiling height would be reasonable. The loft company said they would charge us extra if we chose to do this. We felt annoyed about this, understandably but also over the barrel of a gun, since our roof had been removed and house exposed. Robert said that he had worked with this company a long time and had several similar examples of where they had messed up and he had had to out things right, often at his cost. He suggested that he try and negotiate with the company that we walk away with a refund and he and his team continue the build without their involvement. We feared a lengthy dispute might really delay things, so we went with his suggestion. The company issued a full refund but got their lawyers to send us a gagging order which we signed, stating that we would not reveal their name when telling people about their inaccurate designs. In hindsight, we wish we hadn't signed this.

The build continued and we were now in a personal contract with Robert, which at that point was verbal but for £88k for the whole project. Payment was to be weekly into is bank account. The build progressed slowly but fairly well and the loft inside was complete to a fair standard. Robert was always available to answer calls and questions. Work then suddenly started to slow down and Robert told us that he was having tests for cancer and doctors had told him to take things easy, so he wouldn't be answering his phone on the evenings. Around the same time, he got rid of the small team of builders he had assigned to the project, saying they were doing short days, hence work slowing down. After two weeks of no work completed at the house, he assigned a new Foreman. At an equally slow pace, with lots of excuses about materials not arriving and vans having problems, the roof was started and the foundations for the extension were put in.

However, work started slowing considerably and Robert proved harder and harder to get hold of. He didn't respond to texts or voicemails and he broke many promises about when the roof would be finished, when scaffold would be taken down, when loft windows would go in and when plumbing would be completed. Meanwhile, our party wall neighbours told us they could see no signs if flashing on their side of the newly laid roof. We sent photos to the building control inspector and he agreed that this would need to be remedied. The neighbours the other side decided to put their house up for sale and did get a buyer at a good price. They then started to put pressure on us to get the scaffold down, saying it was jeopardising the sale of their house. Eventually they asked us to get Robert to provide them with a written guarantee that scaffold would be removed by the date they would be moving out and were talking about taking legal action against us! Robert promised to deliver the guarantee on more than one occasion but let us down.

Whilst all this was happening, the landlord of the flat we had rented for the expected duration of the work, decided to sell, so we would effectively be made homeless on 5th July- something we warned Robert about and he had assured us that the house would be habitable enough to move into, even if not finished.

The final straw came, when after a Thurs and Friday with no explanation from Robert, he texted on the Monday to say he would be onsite by 9.30am and would be speaking to the neighbour regarding their guarantee. He did not show up and no work was completed on the house. We had by this stage contacted the scaffold company and they told us he owed them £500. He also owed a similar amount the the electrician he had subcontracted and owed about £1000 to a plumber.

That evening we sent him a formal email telling him that we had no option but to terminate our contract with him and find a new contractor to complete the work. We asked him to refund money paid for work outstanding and to return our keys to us and said that if he does not refund us the money, we would have to seek legal action. One week later he replied by email to say that if we put in a claim against him, he would put in a counter claim, since we we should have given him seven days notice before terminating the contract!

A couple of weeks after this a nice chap from the window company Robert bought some of the windows from turned up to say he had not been paid £1680 and wanted to remove the windows. He has, graciously let us keep them after hearing our woes!

Within a week of dismissing Robert we hired a roofing company to complete the work on the roof, so we could take scaffold down. They said the work done was of very poor quality and clearly not done by a roofer. They charged us £6000 to put right what Robert had not done right and to complete what he had not finished.

We are left with an uninhabitable house, seven months on. There is no kitchen, no hot water, very little plumbing of any sort, incomplete electrics, the front bay window was knocked through and is boarded up, as is a bathroom window, the foundations for extension are in with trenches either side rendering the garden unusable and the soil pipe has been sawn through by Robert's team amongst other things. We are living with my disabled mum in her small two bed flat and are having to find funds to get a new builder to complete the house. Quote is 50k to complete the work. We paid Robert £119k and the builders that have given quotes say that about 60ks worth of work has been completed.

We have sent Robert a letter following advice from trading standards. He is listed at various addresses when we look him up on 192.com but currently doesn't seem to own a property. He uses an address which is in Hertfordshire and has another address in Fulham that he rents. I'm uncertain where he lives permanently but do have his car registration number and a photo of a residents permit in his car for the borough of Ealing.

My question is: given he has ripped us off to the tune of around 60k, what is the best step to take after the two week trading standard letter deadline is up?

I contacted three solicitors and two said they were too busy, one I didn't think much of on first impression. Should this be our next port of call or should we try something else, such as:-

Private debt collection company (would this rule of taking legal action at a later point?)

3rd party debt order on his bank account

Statutory demand then a bankruptcy petition

I am also considering instructing a barrister under direct access scheme, as this might save some money.

Any advice or experience, greatly appreciated!

This is a real horror story - it is indeed a great shame you agreed to the gagging order and very unfortunate that you swapped one nightmare for another.

I am sure someone will look in over the weekend with some advice. I have alerted others on the site team as well.

As for the options you listed.

1. DCA - Pointless, they have no more powers than you or I, all they can do is write a letter asking for the money, this wont bring results.

2. Dont believe this can be done unless you start legal action and are succesful.

3. No expert on this, but SD can easily be set aside (youll see many here have done this), not sure petitioning for bankruptcy would help you.

Clearly the obvious answer is to start legal proceedings for the money, alas, it wont be on the small track and there are costs riosks, not too mention that it does indeed sound rather complex, it does sound though as if this 'Robert' may not pay up if you get judgement against 'him', was he operating in person alone or as a Ltd Company ?

Thank you. The contract we had with Robert was with him personally and I've heard that makes the possibility of successful legal action more likely.

Citizen B- re. the gagging order. We have been wondering about whether a contract lawyer would help us get this rescinded, since we now believe we signed it under duress (since roof was off our house and Robert himself said it would be hard to get a new builder to take the project on). I know this is a long shot and we were very stupid not to seek legal advice there and then.

Yes..it may make legal action simplier but then again, he may not have (nor ever have) 60K.

Do you have "Legal cover" on your home insurance ?????

How did you pay this "Clown" ????

To get his address as you have a "copy" of a parking permit in Ealing. ... Check the "Electoral register".

35 years in the building game and this sort of stuff makes my "Blood Boil".

As "andydd" said (more or less). "Don't hold your breath"

I think your best option is to go ahead and instruct a solicitor to bring a claim through the courts ASAP. The reality is that you might not be able to get your money back but hopefully you will be able to find him through the addresses you have or through the tradesmen. I imagine there is a good chance he won't defend it properly which would result in you getting default judgment.

I would get the judgment first, then immediately instruct HCEOs and also seek a third party debt order against the bank account you paid into. I imagine most of the money will be gone by now but you might as well have what is left.

I don't think a contract lawyer would be able to help with you with the gagging order. The legal concept of 'duress' is very narrow and I don't think you fall within it. Would rescinding the gagging order help you at all?

Thank you. We kept paying, as he always had a valid excuse- everything would be a few days away. The sad irony is that we worried that if we stopped paying him, he'd abandon the project and leave us in a mess, as at one time we were slightly late (by a couple of hours!) in paying him and he sent an email saying he was giving us formal notice that he was withdrawing from the site and had ordered removal of scaffold. We were very naive, as we don't expect people to do this to one another.

We don't have legal cover either. This has been a huge learning curve- a hard lesson indeed. Can't believe he would do this to a young family. We worked hard to buy the house and save the money towards our family's future.

Seems the Ealing permit corresponds to an address he uses when working in London, which is actually rented by a business parter of his, with whom we've had no dealings, since our contract was with Robert personally.

I'm not sure if people are allowed to recommend litigation lawyers on this site, but any recommendations from experience would be gladly received since we've not had much joy so far.

Thanks again.

Hi Lujay

Contact CAB they should have a list of reputable solicitors. Contact Trading Standards see if this 'Robert' has a history of poor workmanship.

Hello all,

I recently received helpful advice from users on this forum with regards to a cowboy builder who has ripped us off 60k.

I spoke to a very helpful but expensive solicitor who suggested that it is unlikely that we'll see our money again but court action might help us feel we haven't let him get away with it and representing ourselves won't be too hard given our case is clear cut.

Question is: which court might this claim go to? The solicitor told me that he thought county court can be up to 75k but he doesn't really deal with county court cases, so wasn't sure. I thought it was much less- in which case, would the case go to high court?

If the case does get heard in the high court, what are the possible actions the judge could impose on the builder? Would a CCJ be possible if the case hadn't be heard in a county court?

Any rough ideas how long from applying for a court order until a case gets heard in court?

Many thanks.

two thread merged for history

dx

This claim should be started in county court. Have a read of http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part07/pd_part07a#2.1. If you are going to run a claim of this size by yourself you need to be familiar with the Civil Procedure Rules and make sure you carefully check them at each stage.

When you say you thought the limit was less, you might be thinking about small claims for which the limit is 10k. However the county courts handle larger claims too.

It normally takes a few months to get to the stage of a court hearing.

This claim should be started in county court. Have a read of http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part07/pd_part07a#2.1. If you are going to run a claim of this size by yourself you need to be familiar with the Civil Procedure Rules and make sure you carefully check them at each stage.

 

When you say you thought the limit was less, you might be thinking about small claims for which the limit is 10k. However the county courts handle larger claims too.

 

It normally takes a few months to get to the stage of a court hearing.

Thanks so much, That's really helpful. I've got some studying to do but I'm determined to see this through. I'll post a message once it's all over to let you know the outcome!

Hello all,

I have recently posted about taking a cowboy builder to court. I posted the notice before action letter two and a half weeks ago via recorded delivery to an address I know he lives at (or at least uses). Having tracked the delivery on royal mail's website it seems he has not collected the letter.

My question is: does this stop me from going ahead and filing a court order?

Many thanks again for any advice.

Lujay

Hello again.

I've merged your threads as it's better to keep the information together so the guys can advise you without searching. I expect they'll be along later.

HB

Hi everyone,

I'm in the process of starting a claim against a builder who ripped us off. Thanks for your previous help.

I can't afford legal representation and the CAB said they cannot help me- even to understand and complete the complex forms I have to fill in! I have got as far as filing the claim and have now received a notice of allocation to fast track and the builder has disputed my claim so I have to complete a directions questionnaire.

My question relates to the pre-action protocols. It's says you're expected to fully comply with the protocols, including holding meeting with builder. That is not likely to happen as he did not reply to my previous letters trying to resolve the situation.

However, point 4.3.2 of the protocol says that if no response to claim letter is received by me, I can proceed without complying fully with the protocol.

My question is: is the claim letter they refer to the same as the 'letter before claim' that I sent the builder and received no response to (he didn't collect it from post office after I sent it recorded delivery and it's been sent back to me)? Or am I now expected to write a new claim letter?

I'd really appreciate advice and I'm likely to be back again with more questions.

Lujay

No. You rely on the claim letter which you sent - even though he didn't accept it.

Also, I advise you to make every attempt to comply with the protocol because it looks good for you.

This means that you send him at least two or three letters over the next few weeks referring to the protocol and inviting him for discussions. Each subsequent letter you refer to your previous letter and express disappointment that he hasn't so far replied or that he has refused your invitation.

Lay down a good paper trail. It may help you later if you happen to lose as you may have an argument against an award of costs - or at least for reduced costs.

You should let us see the claim.

Also, I have to say that you should have been fully prepared and informed by the time you made the claim rather than finding out as you go along.

Keep a good detailed note of every minute you spend researching, writing, phoning etc etc as you can claim all of this on costs if you win

threads merged yet again

please keep to one thread

dx

Now I see the whole story, does this builder have any assets?

Sorry that I did not link threads. Life is still chaos (living on a building site with a toddler is not fun) and I'm not firing on all cylinders. I'll ensure I do so in future.

Thanks bank fodder.

We cannot find any assets listed on line for the builder and appears to rent his property. The fact that he has disputed the claim makes me wonder whether he is trying to protect assets we don't know about- or maybe he simply doesn't want a CCJ against his name as that would jeopardise his ability to get work in future (he's 55, so a few years left and he "manages" rather than builds anyway).

He has no assets that you can discover. You are going to be on a hiding to nothing and the best that you can hope for is to make his life difficult with a judgment against him. He is probably hiding assets.

I think that you need to do some solid research on this guy. Although it adds another level of complication, if you found that he has a pattern of this kind of thing - and this is entirely possible - especially working for the same design company, then I would think about joing the design company into the action for their negligent advice in recommending him.

They do have assets and are easily traceable.

Also, I'll bet you that they know a bit about him.

I know that we will probably get no money back from him but I am pursuing the case on principal and in the hope that a CCJ makes it hard for him to get work in future.

I'm not sure where I would do research. We've paid for a 192 info scan and that revealed a reasonable amount but nothing to say he has assets. I know he is divorced and has a son and daughter, both of whom are traceable and I get the feeling they don't have much to do with him, despite the fact that he often said he was visiting them of a weekend.

The design company have been particularly nasty- such as recently refusing to give us structural engineerings plans for the extension, drawn up by the chap they commissioned- knowing that we can ill afford new plans. We are kicking ourselves for stupidly signing the gagging order with them in order to break the contract and get a refund following their mistake with plans. We are aware that arguing it was signed under duress would be very difficult. I'm not sure whether we could take a new approach by saying they were negligent in recommending this builder. Any thoughts? The gagging order is a massive barrier to any action against them and I'm worried it blocks all roads to them, so-to-speak.

He has no assets that you can discover. You are going to be on a hiding to nothing and the best that you can hope for is to make his life difficult with a judgment against him. He is probably hiding assets.

 

I think that you need to do some solid research on this guy. Although it adds another level of complication, if you found that he has a pattern of this kind of thing - and this is entirely possible - especially working for the same design company, then I would think about joing the design company into the action for their negligent advice in recommending him.

They do have assets and are easily traceable.

 

Also, I'll bet you that they know a bit about him.

Me again...

I am completing the directions questionnaire for multi-track and have a couple of questions for the experts.

When it says "do you intend to make any applications in the future?" I am assuming this means things like third party debt order, which I think would be appropriate in this case. Am I correct? Do I also have to put here that I would like a judgement against builder or is that for the judge to decide?

Thinking ahead to disclosure of electronic documents I intend to use as evidence in my case against the builder; does anyone have any idea where I can get a rough estimate of how much it might cost to retrieve deleted voicemails from within the last twelve months?

Very grateful as always for any thoughts.

I am completing the directions questionnaire for multi-track and have a couple of questions for the experts.

When it says "do you intend to make any applications in the future?" I am assuming this means things like third party debt order, which I think would be appropriate in this case. Am I correct? Do I also have to put here that I would like a judgement against builder or is that for the judge to decide?