Hi all I could really do with some advice!

Great site often direct people here but now I need your services!

Debt is council tax and here is how it came about:

I moved house Nov last year I was slightly behind on payments at the time but not much,

I informed them and they stated a new revised bill would be sent out.

I received my bill at new address but not until end of Jan,

a quick check and all seemed in order payments owed seemed to match up till end of tax year.

what actually happened was the bill for my new house was sent to my new house

and the bill for outstanding amount owed was sent to my previous address

- I must point out they knew I had moved and didn't have two houses!

The bill I had seemed right, I trusted them so began making payments

- already behind as I owed December and Jan as bill was late probably due to xmas.

All my payments were made via auto phone or at the PO no contact with the council.

I now know that when I began making payments when the council processed them they were being assigned to the wrong bills.

I've just found out that your ref number on the council tax bill is the same for every bill!

Depending on who processed my payment some were assigned to the bill at my previous address,

some for my new address end of tax year 2014 and eventually some against the new end of tax year 2015 bill for my new address.

All following?

3 bills all using the same reference number and payments being randomly assigned between them.

I only knew about two bills, new address one and new address this tax year end 2015.

Early this year I received a few letters from the council saying I was behind on payments etc

and like a fool I just assumed it was a crossover, I was playing catch up on Dec and Jan payments and thought it was just because I was a bit behind.

I had the bill in hand I had the payment refs in hand no problem.

What happened was a liability order was issued for the bill at my previous address

and Jacobs were given my previous address as the contact one, it appears all council letters for this bill were sent here too.

Shortly after that I received a notice of impending liability action for my current address and tax bill,

I was behind so I quickly brought the payments up to date but not quickly enough to stop the liability order.

Now the above paragraph is stuff I've only found out recently,

the second liability order was issued 2 days before I made final payment

like I fool I simply just kept paying instead of ringing the council.

My payments weren't going against the right bill which led to the second liability order,

all the paperwork the council sent said pay up or we will proceed with action

- to avoid action pay so I did!!

Fast forward to beginning of July this year

I receive a demand from Jacobs for council tax

now at this point as far as I am concerned I'm up to date I'm making payments no problem.

I rang them and said I don't understand I've paid this and here is my payment ref numbers,

guy says I'll get that checked with the council

but there is a second liability order on your account just came in a few days ago a letter is going out to you shortly.

I'm very confused at this point and spent a few hours probably going through my paperwork,

finding all payment ref's and cross checking with my bank statement.

Information in hand I finally rang the council the same day (hindsight is a wonderful thing should have rang them months ago)

when I began questioning payments that's when it all came to light that payments had been assigned to the wrong bills,

I spent 40 mins on the phone whilst the lady put all the payments in the right places

end of conversation turns out I owe £150ish from previous address.

I then, after I put the phone down, paid this amount direct to the council via the payment line.

Jacobs are after £450ish on first liability and £170ish on the second liability order.

I have confirmed with Jacobs and the council that for the first liability order they went to enforcement stage

and visted my previous address in June so the charges breakdown like this:

first liability £75 handling fee and £235 enforcement fee rest is debt

second liability £75 handling fee rest is debt

Now I've cleared it with the council and Jacobs and both are aware that all council tax is paid and up to date there is no debt.

so Jacobs want £75, £235 and £75.

Now a little research has revealed that I could well go down the route of that the council is at fault for issuing a liability order

to my previous address and the wrongful allocation of payments led to the second liability order being issued,

formal complaint and the whole thing collapses.

But that's a very stressful solution and I feel my previous handling of payments getting in on time

and the fact I never rang them means I'm responsible too.

I've decided to go down the following route:

I've sent Jacobs a letter detailing all events and timelines and confirming all that has taken place with the council

and themselves since I discovered all this at the beginning of July.

I'm disputing the enforcement charge and have stated I am prepared to pay the handling fees but not until this matter is cleared up.

I've cited Regulation 6 of the taking control of goods regulations 2013 and Regulation 8 (1) (e) of the taking control of goods regulations 2013

- person must be given in person a notice of enforcement seven days prior to a vist.

Evidence being how could I have received such a notice when I didn't live there,

proof via a lot of paperwork, previous landlord, councils own records.

Also regulations state that such an enforcement charge can only be applied after a levy has been made.

"one attendance with a vehicle with "a view to recovering goods after a levy has been made"

I've outlined in the letter that first contact with them was at the beginning of July,

I've never paid them anything or had any payment arrangement with them.

the enforcement charge is effectively fraud as no such work has been carried out as it is a charge for levying distress

and/or making a payment arrangement via a walking procession order.

None of which has taken place because I didn't live there.

I've requested a new demand notice as both my current demand notices include all charges and the debt.

I've requested a bill for the two handling fees before I'm prepared to make payment.

Now first question am I right??????

I think I am but it would be awful nice to hear from a few people whilst I play the waiting game.

Second question,

I've done a bit of research and I can't quote it at this stage but I've been led to believe that if the debt is completely cleared

on a liability notice except fees then no further charges can be applied?

I've been advised they can only charge one enforcement fee and the new rules mean multiple liability orders must be combined

when handled to minimise fees so they seem to be in a bit of a paradox if this is true.

If they squash the fee they will have to reissue demand notices and I will pay as I won't let it get to enforcement stage

but if they don't squash the fee then what happens next?

How do they enforce all of this if they can't charge me again?

Final question

I can't seem to find anywhere anything that advices on my current situation.

Everything I've read says a bailiff can do this that in order to collect the creditors debt but nothing when its just bailiff fees.

I understand under new rules the handling fee is part of the debt but does the clearing of the council tax limit them in anyway?

I'm hoping they will fold but I'm expecting they will ignore my letter and send the demands again hoping I fold.

As I said earlier I'm playing the waiting game now,

the accounts on hold till Monday due to the fee dispute and my letter went in the post recorded today so demands need to be,

I think, reissued after they have considered my letter so I've easy bought myself till the end of next week before it shifts up a gear.

so thoughts?

advice?

anything please I really hate waiting to see if I'm right!!!!!

The post below on another thread should give an insight into what may have happened with payment allocation for different year's bills. The link to a FoI request in that post has more detail:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?428224-Council-tax-woes-threatened-summons-ignored-correspondence-etc....&p=4569071&viewfull=1#post4569071

Thanks for reply outlawla that is interesting reading, certainly sheds some light on what happened with the payments. When I spoke to the council the lady that moved all the payments around kept saying "I don't why they have done that or who has done this". I assumed this would be a person instead of an automatic system, it fits with the facts anyway as my payments didn't always match the requested payment amounts, sometimes more sometimes less.

I think it highlights how difficult and stressful it would be to go down the route of implying the first and then second liability order were invalid due to council failings.

Now my letter said that it would be impossible for me to enter into any sort of repayment with Jacobs whilst the issue of the enforcement fee was outstanding, I've got up this morning wondering if it would be a good idea to simply pay the two £75 fees via their own automatic payment methods. I've checked and it would be easy to do this on the phone or website no people involved. If I don't get a good response from them this week or early next I could respond with a letter stating that I wish to show goodwill and make two one off payments for these fees then the dispute would be purely the enforcement fee.

I'm strongly against a repayment arrangement over the phone as somewhere down the line it could imply I accept liability for the enforcement fee - I'm probably wrong about this but I wouldn't want to muddy the waters.

To be honest, I think you should make a formal complaint about the liability order which brought about the Jacob's fee. If the council can't allocate payments to the right account, for the right year and at the right address it's not your fault - you gave them the information they needed to work on and they still send correspondence to your old address? I've helped a couple of people with council tax bailiff fees and when it's the council's fault the fees have been cancelled.

To be honest, I think you should make a formal complaint about the liability order which brought about the Jacob's fee. If the council can't allocate payments to the right account, for the right year and at the right address it's not your fault - you gave them the information they needed to work on and they still send correspondence to your old address? I've helped a couple of people with council tax bailiff fees and when it's the council's fault the fees have been cancelled.

I hear what your saying so I've decided to explore this a bit.

I've just rang the council and explained what I've done and what the situation is with regards to the enforcement fee, waiting to hear from Jacobs just wanted to put them in the picture as its their liability order and Jacobs are their agents.

Helpful lady put me through to the Councils court officer who went through everything with me and seems to have a positive understanding of the situation with regards to the 1st liability order being put through to the wrong address.

She has just gone to check on a few things with her own boss and is calling me back, seems at least for the seven day notice I'm right but waiting to hear what her judgement is on the case as a whole.

I deliberately kept it to facts only and didn't start trying to quote law or demand anything other than pointing out everything went to the wrong address and so notice didn't take place.

I'll keep you informed

Ok heard back from council no magic solution but seems foul play is already afoot!

Jacobs have told council that a letter dated 14/7 validates the previous enforcement fee. This letter was received by me a few days after and I responded Monday 21/7 with everything in this thread so far.

Now here is the foul play this letter is a notice of further enforcement, no breakdown but an amount shown which I now know is £75 fee, £235 enforcement from June and debt.

It also states that if they have to perform a vist then a further enforcement fee of at least £235 will be added!!!

NOT HAPPY!!!

I have rang Jacobs who made notes but advised me to email concerns then the man dealing with my account will be able to take this onboard before responding to my initial letter.

So I've refered them to the original letter stating no notice was received of vist so the enforcement fee from June is invalid and how can this letter validate that enforcement fee when it implying a further enforcement fee will be applied if I don't respond to this letter? I can only be charged for one enforcement vist!

The term cake and eating it seems apt

I've also told them that if this is their position on the matter then I will not be accepting it and taking further action myself.

The council court officer has told me to wait for Jacobs response and then get back in touch with her if I'm not happy.

Thoughts anyone? If Jacobs refuse to play ball then I think I'll have to go the full complaint tot he council route and see what that throws up.

Does anyone think my idea of paying the fees (£75), after Jacobs response, has merit?

Why would you pay a fee when the council made mistakes with allocating payments and sending letters to the wrong address ?

Have you contacted your local Councillor(s) and asked they intervene & investigate on your behalf?

If you have a Notice of Enforcement dated 14 July then that is supposed to give you 7 clear days to make contact, make an arrangement or pay in full before it goes to the Enforcement Stage. The date listed for compliance should be if sent 1st Class, 25/7 - sent 2nd Class, 29/7 or if hand delivered, 24/7, these ar just approximations and would be interest to hear what they have actually written.

Have you contacted your local Councillor(s) and asked they intervene & investigate on your behalf?

 

If you have a Notice of Enforcement dated 14 July then that is supposed to give you 7 clear days to make contact, make an arrangement or pay in full before it goes to the Enforcement Stage. The date listed for compliance should be if sent 1st Class, 25/7 - sent 2nd Class, 29/7 or if hand delivered, 24/7, these ar just approximations and would be interest to hear what they have actually written.

Thank you have just made the penny drop in my mind

First letter I have from them is dated 4/7/2014 this is a bill for £455.65 (£75,£235 and debt) this letter asks for contact within seven days and warns of additional charges of £235. it provides no breakdown.

This is the letter I first responded to by phoning them and saying I think this is already paid and here are payment refs. This phone call informed me of second liability order pending.

they said we'll check all this out and wait for letter on second liability.

They never got back to me instead I received the 14/7/2014 letter stating notice of further enforcement amount due £455.65.

That letter says if I don't respond further action will be taken and the original notice of enforcement (first letter) has not received a satisfactory response.

It tells me to ring immediately or if a vist takes place a further fee of £235 will apply.

this further letter prompted all the action I took on the 21/7/2014

Two days before the letter dated 14/7/2014 arrived I received an intial contact letter for the second liability.

Now call me stupid but is someone at their office getting confused and thinking that the enforcement fee is a result of these letters so valid? No vist has taken place at my current address and my first phone call with pay refs was never followed up on by informing me.

The enforcement fee was already applied at first contact 4/7/2014 as you can see

I would greatly welcome your input any questions please ask.

I haven't talked to anyone yet other than Jacobs or the council I have it in mind but I thought it best to wait for Jacobs response as I think everyone is just going to say lets see what Jacobs say!

I'm leaning towards setting up a payment arrangement as the paper trail is massive for the dispute or just paying the £75 fees to buy time.

First contact should have placed a hold? I have a hold on the account till 27th that was to give me time to get my letter in, that hold is from 21/7/2014

I think I need to make a decision on repayment by close Friday to avoid any knocks at the door.

There are some people on this site who believe that jacobs wouldn't recognise an Act of parliament if it hit them in the face. I couldn't possibly comment but I would say this.

The time has come to send in a formal Complaint to the CEO of the Council. Both for the incompetence of the Council in getting your address wrong and Jacobs getting

their fees wrong. They can charge £75 per Notice of Enforcement but cannot charge the £235 Enforcement fee twice.

Ploddertom is correct that you should bring in your Local Councillors as you have been paying the outstanding amounts so to have the bailiffs after you because of Council ineptitude is just plain wrong. You need to get the bailiffs put on hold until the whole matter has been investigated and after that see who owes what.

just to correct something I said on the above post. They EAS cannot charge you £75 for each N OE unless they were issued far enough apart that they couldn't be sent on

the same letter. This will obviously need watching where Councils are not run by the Council but contracted out to profit making companies that have bailiff companies within their

group. [You know who you are!]

The Taking Control of Goods 2014 Regulations

11. (1) This regulation applies for the purpose of calculating the fees and disbursements payable to the enforcement agent in accordance with regulations 4, 8, 9 and 10 in a case where—

(a)the enforcement agent receives instructions to use the procedure under Schedule 12 in relation to the same debtor but in respect of more than one enforcement power; and

(4) Where paragraph (1) applies, the fee recoverable in respect of the enforcement stage (or stages) and the sale or disposal stage respectively is to be calculated as follows—

(a)the fixed fee for each stage may be recovered only once regardless of the number of enforcement powers to which the instructions relate;

This may well come as a surprise to some bailiff companies.