Normally I think Channel 4 are quite Guardian in their reporting of benefit issues. But I live in Tower Hamlets where the doc was set and I felt very conflicted watching it. I just want to get other people's opinions too please, because I feel a bit dark on it now.

I'm on HB and JSA. Everyone in the show was either not born in the UK yet was moaning how they weren't getting free housing, or single mothers who seemed to be 'professional breeders' looking for the state to support their choices. I'm a single white guy who used to work but can't find a job now, so you better believe there's NO help for me out there.

Fair enough, there was one guy who had 'anxiety' issues who got angry when told he might have to do a day's work again at some point in his life.

I love how this documentary is working for the Condem govt. and even turning people like me who are totally reliant on the state due to not being able to find a job, against people who have 3.4,5 children never having worked with no partner, or immigrants who get angry that their needs must be catered for although they've never paid a penny into society. Or those with mental illnesses such as depression or anxiety who (having suffered myself) the best thing is not to be pandered to, but actually to get out there and try, then feel a whole lot better. And don't even get me started on how these people were using ADHD and ODD to justify getting more benefits when all their kids needed were a bit of love and care from the parents.

Please, help me understand what's gone wrong with our benefit system...

in my opinion, there has been a glut of programmes commissioned (mostly from third parties) which feed directly into the government's agenda to paint every benefit recipient as being a skiver who is abusing the system

in my opinion, there has been a glut of programmes commissioned (mostly from third parties) which feed directly into the government's agenda to paint every benefit recipient as being a skiver who is abusing the system

Totally, I agree with you. But last night's was different to me maybe because I actually live in the area. It just seems wrong to me that single mums can keep having as many kids as they want safe in the knowledge councils are legally obliged to eventually provide housing. Or Somalis/Bangladeshi's who always marry a cousin from the homeland then turn up at the council's door demanding housing. (Tower Hamlets - admin I'm not saying this is a UK issue, please understand me better).

I guess I'm just a bit frustrated that those of us who were born here 40+ years ago and haven't had children because we knew we couldn't afford them, get no respect from the state, whilst those who just throw their hands in the air due to children need get everything. I'm compassionate, and even used to be a teacher too, but surely there must be a sense of 'fairness' in the system?

Normally I think Channel 4 are quite Guardian in their reporting of benefit issues. But I live in Tower Hamlets where the doc was set and I felt very conflicted watching it. I just want to get other people's opinions too please, because I feel a bit dark on it now.

 

I'm on HB and JSA. Everyone in the show was either not born in the UK yet was moaning how they weren't getting free housing, or single mothers who seemed to be 'professional breeders' looking for the state to support their choices. I'm a single white guy who used to work but can't find a job now, so you better believe there's NO help for me out there.

 

Fair enough, there was one guy who had 'anxiety' issues who got angry when told he might have to do a day's work again at some point in his life.

 

I love how this documentary is working for the Condem govt. and even turning people like me who are totally reliant on the state due to not being able to find a job, against people who have 3.4,5 children never having worked with no partner, or immigrants who get angry that their needs must be catered for although they've never paid a penny into society.

 

Or those with mental illnesses such as depression or anxiety who (having suffered myself) the best thing is not to be pandered to, but actually to get out there and try, then feel a whole lot better. And don't even get me started on how these people were using ADHD and ODD to justify getting more benefits when all their kids needed were a bit of love and care from the parents.

 

Please, help me understand what's gone wrong with our benefit system...

I think you pretty much answered your own question.

I dont think the system was ever intended to be a way of life, which it appears to be for some people.

We have seen quite a lot of abuse of the Benefit system - you only have to pop "Benefit Cheats" in to the search engine and 100's of cases are listed. It is very scary.

http://www.northdevonjournal.co.uk/Council-reveals-10-benefit-cheats-prosecuted/story-20949207-detail/story.html

http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/11157017.__40k_benefit_cheats_walk_free_from_court/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205496/Nigerian-minicab-driver-claimed-earned-just-700-month-owned-luxury-1m-mansion-Africa.html

http://www.thurrockgazette.co.uk/news/10285728.Benefit_cheat_parents_from_Aveley_sentenced_after___60_000_fraud/

http://www.234pulse.com/2013/05/nigerian-woman-fined-300000-for-welfare-fraud-in-uk/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2580527/Demanding-asylum-4-million-Ugandan-benefits-cheat-claimed-100-fake-children-Fraudster-says-return-home-disgrace-faces.html

There are those who genuinely will require long term financial support and it is right they should obtain the support they require.

but the thing is that even benefit claimants are falling for it as so many think they are more deserving than others

What's "gone wrong" (and I use the scare quotes advisedly) is a sort of divide-and-conquer thing. All of us who receive benefits are good and worthy recipients. We are simply calling on the state to help us in our hour of need. It's just those other people, those lazy scroungers, people faking illness, foreign benefit tourists and so on who ruin it for everyone.

And as long as the government (any Government, the ConDems are not unique in this) can get people to believe this nonsense, punitive cuts to the welfare state will continue.

Stuff like this still goes on, it isn't in the governments interest to claw back this money, in fact Green was an adviser to the Government :-

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2005/oct/21/executivesalaries.executivepay

Antone

I so agree that divide and conquer is being used

the pensioner thinking the disabled is putting it on

the disabled thinking the single parent is just popping out kids for benefits

the single parent thinking the low paid immigrant is stealing jobs

the low paid immigrant thinking the unemployed are lazy

etc, etc

Any thoughts? Yes, plenty, mainly to do with breeding rates of some people but I won't go off on one as I will likely get banned!

"We are simply calling on the state to help us in our hour of need"

I'm not, I paid NI and tax for 18 years and claiming MY money not the governments, I get around £8k a year in benefits after earning £30k+ a year working and paying my way

What's "gone wrong" (and I use the scare quotes advisedly) is a sort of divide-and-conquer thing. All of us who receive benefits are good and worthy recipients. We are simply calling on the state to help us in our hour of need. It's just those other people, those lazy scroungers, people faking illness, foreign benefit tourists and so on who ruin it for everyone.

 

And as long as the government (any Government, the ConDems are not unique in this) can get people to believe this nonsense, punitive cuts to the welfare state will continue.

Exactly. But the welfare state was designed back in the 40's for when those who had paid in found themselves in their/our 'hour' of need. Now it's not an 'hour' of need but a whole year, ten year, life-time sucking on the state's teat. Fine. Some people need that. But when we have to start paying for people who never put a penny in to that welfare safety net, and I'm told I can't take anything out having paid in, then it terms normal rational people like me I bit dark. Can you understand that, or do I just need to accept I've now become a bad person and start subscribing to the Daily Mail

Any thoughts? Yes, plenty, mainly to do with breeding rates of some people but I won't go off on one as I will likely get banned!

 

"We are simply calling on the state to help us in our hour of need"

 

I'm not, I paid NI and tax for 18 years and claiming MY money not the governments, I get around £8k a year in benefits after earning £30k+ a year working and paying my way

Not arguing with you here. Most people who claim benefits have paid taxes, so perhaps I should have phrased that differently.

As to breeding rates, the average benefit claimant has the same number of children as the national average. As an aside, the average benefit claimant is also a lot less likely to use drugs or drink excessively. I have no figures on plasma screen TVs...

"Some people need that. But when we have to start paying for people who never put a penny in to that welfare safety net, and I'm told I can't take anything out having paid in, then it terms normal rational people like me I bit dark"

Quite. Me, almost 40 years old,turn up to claim JSA - £72.40p/w after 18 years NI and TAX

Mr X, 25 years old, unemployed, never worked or paid anything in - £72.40p/w

Fair? Yep, of course it is, should be means tested against contributions

Is this a repeat of the programme that was on last year?

Exactly. But the welfare state was designed back in the 40's for when those who had paid in found themselves in their/our 'hour' of need. Now it's not an 'hour' of need but a whole year, ten year, life-time sucking on the state's teat. Fine. Some people need that. But when we have to start paying for people who never put a penny in to that welfare safety net, and I'm told I can't take anything out having paid in, then it terms normal rational people like me I bit dark. Can you understand that, or do I just need to accept I've now become a bad person and start subscribing to the Daily Mail

My point is that there are very few people, relative to the total number of claimants, who have "never put a penny in". Oh, there are some, of course, enough to justify a couple of documentaries here and there. But it's a tiny proportion of what's spent on welfare.

As to the Daily Mail, no need to subscribe. You can scrounge it for free online

antone, apologies for my rather argumentative reply, I just get angry when people from all walks of life put us all in the same boat - some play the system and just want to stay on benefits, some like me and I guess many on here are used to earning good salaries and paying NI and tax and need help genuinely with our (insurance) money we have paid in

 

As to the Daily Mail, no need to subscribe. You can scrounge it for free online

Haha. If it makes you more comfortable to say that rather than face the issue at hand...

My point is please don't think I'm a bad person for expressing my opinion. But living here in Tower H where the doc was set. I just find it really frustrating. At least I thank you for having a bigger brain than just to shut my comments down as Wacist.

but the thing is that even benefit claimants are falling for it as so many think they are more deserving than others

Some are. Some may not prescribe to these views but I happen to think someone who has paid his/her entire life in to the system and is in need is more deserving than someone who from the age of 18 and is say 30-40 now and has never paid a penny in. My views I am afraid.

Some are. Some may not prescribe to these views but I happen to think someone who has paid his/her entire life in to the system and is in need is more deserving than someone who from the age of 18 and is say 30-40 now and has never paid a penny in. My views I am afraid.

Amen. My point.

No, the programme is not a repeat of last year, but an additional programme covering the difficulties posed by the benefit cap.

Shendor, I think you've made some assumptions about the people featured in the programme - from what I can remember, current circumstances were given, but there wasn't really information on their history.

I think what's been missed so far in this discussion, is that the benefits that have been considered 'in excess' and capped is actually as a result of rising rental prices in London and other (now) expensive areas to live, and that it is actually landlords who are making a huge profit from the housing benefit, not the claimants themselves. The rising prices plus the benefit cap and lack of social housing mean that London is being socially cleansed.

To see how quickly you could fall foul of the benefit cap if living in London and privately renting, just imagine you are a 'hard working person', they have three young kids and a partner who is at home with the kids. You had a good job which allowed you to live and pay rent, but not to save, in fact the high rental prices are what have prevented you saving. You are made redundant. You have no savings. If you don't get a job, you will eventually fall under the benefit cap. You get discretionary housing payments to start, but these are eventually withdrawn. You have been trying desperately to get a job, but are considered over qualified for menial jobs and there is huge competition for the jobs you're qualified for. You want to do training in another field, but the jobcentre/work programme won't let you. You fall behind in your rent and eviction proceedings are started. There is no housing you can afford in the area, and there are few jobs in your field outside of London - you are holding out hope that you will get a job. There is no social housing available in the area. Eventually you are being evicted, and finally the LA will house you in social housing - in Manchester or Birmingham or Hull.

Trying to assess worthiness is a dangerous game and is what the condems want you to do. Since you're not aware of all the person's circumstances, you're basically making a snap judgement on what you can see on the surface. With only a limited amount of jobs available at any one time and many more people jobless than jobs, it is logical that those who are most able, most qualified, most lucky, the right age group etc are going to get the jobs, and then what of the other people - are they less worthy of the barest amount of money to sustain life - and what of the kids - are you going to say poor people can't procreate, do you really want THAT type of society.

I don't know what the answers are, but I know at the moment we're going in the wrong direction, away from a fair and equal society where a person is valued for who they are and not what they are able to contribute.

antone, apologies for my rather argumentative reply, I just get angry when people from all walks of life put us all in the same boat - some play the system and just want to stay on benefits, some like me and I guess many on here are used to earning good salaries and paying NI and tax and need help genuinely with our (insurance) money we have paid in

No need to apologise - differing opinions and all that. My point is that aside from a small minority of chancers, we are all in the same boat. The idea that we are not comes from those who seek to destroy the welfare state by pitting its beneficiaries against each other.

Haha. If it makes you more comfortable to say that rather than face the issue at hand...

 

My point is please don't think I'm a bad person for expressing my opinion. But living here in Tower H where the doc was set. I just find it really frustrating. At least I thank you for having a bigger brain than just to shut my comments down as Wacist.

The Daily Mail comment was a joke, of course.

I don't think you're a bad person, and offering commentary on the situation is not racist. I think where we disagree is on the specific nature of "the issue at hand". I think the source of the problem is a government that wishes to dismantle the welfare state for purely ideological reasons - "welfare incubators", "Polish people" and so on are just a distraction.

the bit that everyone seems to be missing here,these people in tower hamlets on benefits cant afford to live there now that the council has started capping benefits,this has been pointed out to them by the council employees that are employed by the council to tell them,these council employees probably don't live in London,because they cant afford to! this has been going on for years,Ive spoken to many many council employees that work in London and commute in to their jobs,they are sick to the back teeth of people on benefits getting their money and living all cosy while they have to commute in every day through the traffic jams to sort their problems out,its a joke!

Very few people on benefits "live all cozy". Hardly any, in fact.

But if this thread proves anything, it's that "divide and conquer" works a treat.

most of the people I ever met in tower hamlets were living cosy on benefits,I lived in that area for twenty years up until 2007,most folk I knew were on benefits and working casual in London,its got a lot tougher for people recently,working casual and being on benefits has been made a lot tougher as businesses are being fined more and there is less casual work around because of the influx of east European immigrants.