ampersand v A&L. LETTER BEFORE ACTION

**ampersand** · 10th October 2006 11:28

Hello to all who help and contribute icon

support here-
On 1 September, I spoke to Helen Clarke at HO, from Grafton St branch , Cambridge. I had just returned from 6 weeks away to find multiple charge letters, (originating in a 1p shortfall overnight, apparently)the last of which was dated 21 August.
I was cut off from internet banking which prevented me seeing what was happening while I was away.
I have had no correspondence from them since.
Obeying her instructions to send in a letter of appeal re:a/c charges/status. I modified the template letter, asking them to deduct the £10 fee from my in-credit current a/c. Sent 1st class post 2 September, as per instructions.
Back to Branch on Fri, 29 Sept. Telephone to HO again. Helen Clarke unavailable but colleague can see her notes. They say they have received nothing from me, so my Template letter and further letter are faxed, at their request. I have timed receipted copies.
Still no response, but 40 days from 2 September expires in 2 days' time/Thurs 12 Oct.
I am having to drive, then pay Park and Ride fares to go and get money from my account each fortnight.
For what it's worth, I am on benefit and budget carefully. I spread fortnightly DD's to cover my absences with their assurance that if Benefit dates/weekends/DD dates did not mesh, the flexibility of their system meant they could take due amounts in a 5-day working period from the set date. I do remember the woman who set them up could not seem to grasp the importance of this for my peace of mind. I believed this, but came back to find it was not true.
Should I reset the 40 days' response time from my knowledge of their receiving my faxed letters i.e. 29 Sept>28 October?
As it is, I have not received the information needed to proceed with my claim.
What next, please?
*********
p.s.I know you have said that people on benefit need not contribute icon

, but I will happily do so when this is satisfactorily resolved.
*********
I keep re-reading f.a.q.'s - if I receive no statements, no letters and cannot access my Internet Banking, how can I see whether/when the £10 was taken. Must I continue to make journeys to the Branch and use their phone? Thankyou. Money continues to go in fortnightly.

Similar Threads:

**Aitken Brotherston** · 10th October 2006 23:57

I assume you sent a data access letter and it is that time that is to expire soon.

Assuming you receive nothing I suggest you consider this action.

1 claim or the charges you know about (you have letters informing you of charges) remembering to include ALL your expenses resulting from this issue e.g. phone calls icon

, postage and driving back and forward to the bank. Use the process outlined on this site.
2 Report them for non-compliance with the DPA - copy letter to A&L
3 Continue to request the data you require

If you find out about other charges, add them to the claim or, if it is too late, start another one.

If you are on benefit, you do not have to pay the court fee should it go that far. (it usually does)

**ampersand** · 11th October 2006 00:21

'You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.'

THIS WHAT COMES OF HAVING TOO MANY PEOPLE TO THANK!

But I still will, Aitken Brotherston.
Thankyou very much for your detailed response(I'll put more weight on your scales later).
I will certainly follow your advised steps; I do try to do my homework here on site first.
However, until I have confirmation that A&L have taken(or waived-unlikely) the £10 fee, I am unwilling to give them a possible escape/delay opportunity. Hence, a further reason for my visit tomorrow.

**ampersand** · 11th October 2006 11:58

I am just about to head to Branch(again-3rd visit since beginning this, 1 and 28 September)with third(date/detail-modified) DAR and letter.
I still haven't seen proof of the £10 fee withdrawal from my account, but in my updated further request, note that tomorrow is the last day for compliance from 2 September.
My visits are necessary, as I now seem to have mislaid my Bank card-it has never happened before and I am at a loss to know how/why/where.
I'll be asking for another, but suspect my chances are somehat smaller than non-existent>miniscule.
************************* ************************* ************************
Away mid-July>end August. Returned to raft of charge letters because of 1p o'd triggered on DD which fell a day before money went in(so I was told by Marie). I'net Banking cut off at some unknown date during my absence, explaining my failure to be able to check all was well(I tried twice)while away.
1/9-Visit Branch,long phonecall with Helen Clarke. 2/9letter sent as per her instruction+DAR. 29/9-Branch again,Jan says 'nothing rcvd'.Docs faxed at her request(number may be useful:01519663058)
11/10?t.b.c.

**ampersand** · 12th October 2006 18:57

Spent much of yesterday at Branch again, with sensible list of 8 bullet points. A&L H.O.=total cock-up zone. Receipt of docs faxed from Branch 28/9 denied, which is countered by confirmed receipt notes on HO screen, though no-one knows where they are now, or at what state of actioning. Branch girl furious as she waited on telephone to hear Jan, at other end verbally confirm receipt. She was helpfully indiscreet about H.O. and constant messes, current upheavals and 'no-one knows what's going on'-and that's just the staff! Bradley was spoken to in no uncertain terms by H.O. about letting me have my own money. He had said I couldn't - they said I could. 40 working days vs 40 calendar days was bandied again(I put them straight). Today IS day 40 since I sent letters as instructed on 2 September. Bradley told me H.O. wanted my 'phone no. I am ex-directory: all communication must be in writing. Bradley, piggy in middle, bats our talk to and fro. I insist on written comms with quiet reminder that my repeat visits stand testimony to this need. Accepted. My last dated post from them is still 21 August, ten days before I returned. They also sought to blame the last male I dealt with on 29 September, Sashi. As I still have no means of seeing any statements I must rely on HO for info. No, despite clear written instructions and an account in credit, it appears nothing has been done. The £10 fee is then taken, though I still have no proof, just an assurance on the 'phone. HO's Andy now instructs Bradley to send ALL docs again, including my updated letters of 11/10 and tells him to go to a more distant 'phone and ring someone else. I should receive something in writing 'in next few days'. I am now tfr'd to private room with HO Nikki from Liverpool on phone, who takes details of my lost card and blocks it. Tfr'd to Brenda, an excellent lady. Thinks my faxes may have gone/have probably gone to Correspondence.' Says 'I'll ensure they delay your review and put n.f.a. on your account'.
WHAT ON EARTH DOES THAT MEAN? Please explain, I ask.
She does.
I learn, for the first time, what A&L apparently did on 7 August i.e. put my a/c onto Withdrawn Status. I register disbelief. Next it's Lauren, then back to the kindly, competent and embarrassed Brenda. Both are clearly taken aback themselves, trying to explain/justify things they themselves say are 'all wrong'.
Again, no-one knows what is happening.
Again, I have spent just on 6 hours in the Branch.
I feel moral ascendancy is mine, but will save that for a positive outcome, maybe by Christmas?
Two points:
a)in these particular circumstances, should I start the 40 days from 1 September, 29 September or yesterday, when I'm told the fee was at last taken?(not that I have proof)
b)Andy instructed Bradley to re-fax the docs to a different no. - 0151-9663096 from that used last time. May be useful.
I feel I am on the road at last.
Could their faltering start be in my favour when the hour of reckoning comes?
***********************
Away mid-July>end August. Returned to raft of charge letters because of 1p o'd triggered on DD which fell a day before money went in(so I was told by Marie). I'net Banking cut off at some unknown date during my absence, explaining my failure to be able to check all was well(I tried twice)while away.
1/9-Visit Branch,long phonecall with Helen Clarke.
2/9 letter sent as per her instruction+DAR.
29/9-Branch again,Jan says 'nothing rcvd'.Docs faxed at her request(number may be useful:01519663058 Jan verbally confirms to Branch staff and to me that faxes have come through.
11/10. 3rd Branch visit. Docs' existence/receipt initially denied again, despite HO notes to contrary, so faxed again, this time>0151-9663096. Learn a/c was given w/d status 7 August, though chq's have been honoured since and money banked and given.
12/10. Day 40, no post received.

**ampersand** · 17th October 2006 07:03

Morning all - 3 'letters' from A&L yesterday.
First one, dated 13 October 2006, is headed Appeal Against Closure and says my account will be closed on 21 August 2006 and 'If you have not already done so, please cut up your card(s)and return them to me immediately'.
Second one, also dated 13 October 2006, also headed Appeal Against Closure, says my account will be closed on 27 October.Again: 'If you have not already done so, please cut up your card(s)and return them to me immediately'.
Third one, dated only 'October 2006', advises 'we have taken the difficult decision to close our Cambridge Fitzroy Street Branch, from 5pm on Tuesday 12 December 2006.'

I am, however, delighted to tell all Readers Here Present that A&L have invited me to the official re-launch party of what will be the enlarged new-look Sidney Street branch from 9am on Saturday 16 December, which re-opens on Wednesday 13 December. Their letter formats can be ponderous, grammatical no-go areas.

This cannot be what I was promised 'from the Legal Department' in Branch last Wednesday.

Shall I now go ahead for non-compliance on DAR letter? Although they now assure me the £10 fee was taken this same day,
a):I had instructed this first on 1 September, confirmed in writing 2 September - A&L must comply by 11/12 October
b)

itto, via fax from Branch 29 September - A&L must comply by 7 November.
c)

itto, via further fax from Branch, 11 October - A&L must comply by 19 November. Also reported card lost.

I want the 40 days' compliance date to be watertight, so two questions, please:
(given their incompetence so far and my failure to receive any Statements or proof of transactions)

1.WHICH date shall I use?

2.What will happen to my deposited money after 27 October? I have not yet arranged for it to go elsewhere.
I wanted to leave it with A&L so that I would continue to have an account in credit with them.

Many thanks and dawn chorus greetings to all
************************* ************************* ******************
THE STORY SO FAR:
Away mid-July>end August. Returned to raft of charge letters because of 1p o'd triggered on DD which fell a day before money went in(so I was told by Marie). I'net Banking cut off at some unknown date during my absence, explaining my failure to be able to check all was well(I tried twice)while away.
1/9-Visit Branch,long phone-call with Helen Clarke.
2/9 letter sent as per her instruction+DAR.
29/9-Branch again,Jan says 'nothing rcvd'.Docs faxed at her request(number may be useful:0151-9663058 Jan verbally confirms to Branch staff and to me that faxes have come through.
11/10. 3rd Branch visit. Docs' existence/receipt initially denied again, despite HO notes to contrary, so faxed again, this time:0151-9663096. Learn a/c was given w/d status 7 August, though chq's have been honoured since and money banked and given.
12/10. Day 40, no post received.
16/10. 3 irrelevant A&L letters received. Still no DAR compliance.

**caro** · 19th October 2006 00:19

It's 40 days from when they received payment, so probably the day after posting the SAR icon

assuming it went first class.

I imagine that you will get a cheque for the credit balance, but it may be as well to take it out before then to be on the safe side. I can't imagine why you want to keep your account, (sorry I haven't read long posts) but if you have strong feelings about it write and tell them that you are placing the account in dispute and that stop them doing anything until the dispute is resolved.

**nackers** · 19th October 2006 10:30

Hello again! There is a separate written correspondence section and it seems to me that either they are not communicating properly with the call centres or (*puts conspiracy theory hat on*) that A&L have actually asked the call centre staff to deny the existence of these requests! They still haven't really acknowledged mine existed although I do now have the data.

Another thing that really concerned me was that I pointed out (5 or 6 times) that the cheque I had sent attached to the letter had been presented and that I was worried about it having been stolen as no one at A&L could confirm reciept of the letter. After my initial call to A&L as I had sent this recorded delivery I asked royal mail to investigate, then had to call back and ask them to call the investigation off when someone else told me they had recieved it, only for someone else to tell me something different the next day. After 6 phone calls icon

it is still unclear to me where it ended up! At last someone is investigating this (and this person credited my account with £10 to cover the cost of my repeated calls both to them and to royal mail - yay!).

**ampersand** · 27th October 2006 09:00

I have this to go today:
Alliance and Leicester p.l.c,
Personal Service Centre,
Bootle,
GIR 0AA.
Friday, 27 October, 2006.

FOR THE URGENT ATTENTION OF:
Ian Wade, esq.,
Head of Customer Services.

Dear Sir,
letter before action
Section 7 – Data Protection Act 1998

Account: xxxxxxxxxx

You have failed to comply with a single one of my three Data Protection Act Subject Access Requests dated:
a) 2 September, 2006(posted 1st Class, in compliance with instructions from your Helen Clarke, by phone from the Grafton Centre Branch, Cambridge).
b) Faxed by your own staff, from the same Branch, again at your request 28 September, 2006.
c) Re-faxed, AGAIN by your own staff, AGAIN at your request, AGAIN from the Grafton Centre Branch, 11 October, 2006.
You are currently in breach of the Statutory limit by 16 days.
I volunteer at a local Charity. Because this has been full-time during the last fortnight, I have been unable to get to a Branch during working hours. I budget carefully and should not be having to do this at all. Transport and parking costs will therefore form part of my Claim.
I am a loyal soul and cannot overstate how I resent feeling I have been forced to this action.

If you do not comply within the next 7 days I shall seek a Court order obliging you to do so together with damages at the discretion of the Court and without any further notice.
The arrival yesterday of my January 2006 statement, partly out of a never-sealed envelope, postmarked 26/10/06, compounds further typical evidence of your failure. Obviously, I have taken photographs of this, backed by a witness.

Please note that although you wrote 2 letters on 13 October, saying my Account with you would be closed in August(an absurdity)and today, 27 October, your staff also assured me on the Branch telephone, that this would not be so. Additionally, I received an invitation to attend the opening of the re-vamped Sidney Street Branch over today and tomorrow.
As you persist in denying me statements(although charging me £5 for one, received 19 October)AND access to Internet Banking, I must continue to add journey costs to my claim against you. My account continues to receive money fortnightly by automatic credit.

This is the money by which I live.

I hope it will not be necessary to deposit a Letter of First Acquisition against you.

I will telephone you in person on 0151.966.4306 today, from the Charity’s landline, prior to sending this letter, in order to ensure no further denials of my Data Access Requests and other communications to date.

Thankyou for your attention.
Yours faithfully,
Ms xxxxxxxx.

......to be continued.
And a happy TGIF to all for whom it's relevant.

Battleaxe · 27th October 2006 10:45

Go for it Ampersand, glad you are writing directly Ian Wade. His desk will be groaning.

keep strong

**nackers** · 27th October 2006 13:23

I like it!

**caro** · 28th October 2006 01:57

Please keep your progress on one thread to make it easier for others to follow your progress. Threads merged.

**ampersand** · 28th October 2006 09:01

UPDATE(with pm apolgies to Caro - it's due to my inexpertise with 'putah)
Phoned the 0151.966.4306helpfully supplied by her Excellency, the Extremely Right and Honorable Mrs Battleaxe. Three attempts between 9am and 1.30pm before it is answered. Using trained Penelope Keith voice, I advise that Ian Wade is expecting my call. He should be, after my forewarning of same. Marie says he is in and out of meetings all day, but promises return call within 30 mins. This is done, Kwai Wong calls me. I say I hope that they will be recording my call. Mr Wade is unable to leave his meeting - 'Please allow me the opportunity to look into this?'(how long did they want?) How can she address my concerns? Would I be prepared to give her the chance to resolve/address them?(who writes their lines?) I ask her not to interrupt while I read my letter to her, which will be faxed to Ian Wade today. She listens. I am in Indignant-but-Courteous, Decent Woman Outrage mode. She asks if she may call me back before I go(supposedly 16.30). She does so. My Statements should be with me overnight. 'We'll refund your fees'.
She will call back again re:my a/c, and does so.
A new card should arrive within the week. My a/c is reactivated.

Of course, I still have to go to the NEW Branch today(don't even know where it is)to go through the whole saga of taking out enough money to live on for the coming fortnight and faxing the lba icon

.
Kwai asked three times whether I still intended to send this.
I answered that, of course, none of my actions were personally directed, but yes, I would be - to correctly comply with legal time-frames which A&L have signally failed to observe.
She hoped(from the script), more than once, that I would allow her and A&L to fully address my concerns.
I said ANYTHING they wished to say must be in writing, for both our sakes, that I accept her personal promise to follow through with detailed actions and would be delighted if they occur. But, as A&L were already 16 days late, I must continue as planned...unless Ian Wade persuades me otherwise. She said she understood this and regretted he wouldn't be able to speak with me 'today'.
I mention, vaguely, articles in The Times etc. about Bank Charges and ask, kindly, whether 'they' have been overwhelmed by this sort of thing. Wriggly answer. I ask for her exact job title - 'I work directly in line with the Group Chief Executive's Office.' I ask his name, 'Richard Pym.'
So, today's letters(the complete file, including photos) will be faxed from Branch and sent recorded to both men.
************************* ************************* ***********************
I have mentioned elsewhere that last night's sudden news of a close one's massive operation next Monday for cancer of the pancreas(survival chances low), coincides with the 6th anniversary of my Beloved R's suicide, directly chosen following admitted legal negligence and a campaign of harassment and terror. So, 6 years icon

on, I survive, barely, with A&L having played their part(manipulated by untruth though they were)in enabling the selling away of the business from under me, without my knowledge, despite my being the Managing Director and loss of everything.
So much happens, so very much happens..........I often feel way past Methuselah in ages lived.
May I make a plea?
If EVER anyone starts to tell you their particular horror story, I am well aware that the quiet voice of the mind sometimes cuts in ,thinking 'Surely it can't be quite like that. Surely, the Courts.........Surely the Police.........' etc.etc.etc.
BE ASSURED, BAD THINGS DO HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE.
Listen with them, on and in their terms, it may be the bravest thing they have ever done and they have chosen to confide, if cathartically, in you.
************************* ************************* ***********************
Everything is relative.
Thankyou to all on this site - and public apologies once more to Caro, for my messing things up inadvertently.

**caro** · 28th October 2006 12:03

No need to apologise Ampersand, we are all learning. Let's hope your conversation bears fruit.

I also hope that your close one is one of those who does succeed in fighting off the cancer, and that things can then start looking up for you. My family has also suffered tragedy in the past, so I know from experience how devastating it can be, and it can take many years to feel able to do much more than take each day as it comes. You have to make the most of every day because you just never know what is around the corner and it will all be taken away.

My very best wishes to you and your family. I hope that Alliance and Leicester run true to form, so that you can get your money back relatively quickly and hassle-free, and at least that worry will be gone.

**ampersand** · 28th October 2006 23:49

[quote=caro]

You have to make the most of every day because you just never know what is around the corner and it will all be taken away.

Thankyou again caro
Why do we have the tendency to regard such words as truisms, platitudes, even clichés?
They are entirely accurate and we should try daily to honour them.

**************
I thought I'd post update later, but let me say now that DOC.S DID ARRIVE THIS MORNING!
Now my cheapie Thing-me-Bobs highlighters can start work, AFTER I've re-read relevant sections here.
...for which, yet again, gratitude to all.

**ampersand** · 4th November 2006 19:31

Learn words for tomorrow's HAKA HERE, before your defeat(kiss of something? Hope not.)

Won't be any use asking Mrs Battleaxe for her humble pie recipe. She won't possess one.

I'm about to begin Spreadsheets, but suddenly thought I should give the words of the Maori Haka, the traditional Polynesian ritual war dance before battle.

(And I'll be joining in tomorrow before we, Qui? we Kiwis,ah oui, wipe floor with a lesser team at 15.00h)

Ready? On y va ------------

Ka mate! Ka mate! Ka ora! Ka ora!
Ka mate! Ka mate! Ka ora! Ka ora!
Tenei te tangata puhuruhuru
Nana nei i tiki mai
Whakawhiti te ra
A upa ne! Ka upa ne!
A upane ka upane whiti te ra!
Hi!(pronounced 'HE!')

TRANSLATION:
I die! I die! I live! I live!
I die! I die! I live! I live!
This is the hairy man
Who fetched the Sun
And caused it to shine again
One upward step!
Another upward step!
An upward step, another...
The sun shines.
Hi

**ampersand** · 4th November 2006 23:05

QUESTION, please:
Should I list all charges then note any refunds issued against them?

I have now managed to bring spreadsheet to life.
As I look at my Statements, I see that I occasionally successfully argued for a Paid Item Charge to be refunded.
I can't find a way on the spreadsheet of dealing with this.
I feel I SHOULD list the totality of charges, as the Refund never specifies WHICH Paid Item charge is being refunded. I thought I would includethe amount refunded in the lba icon

, treating it as a partial refund, with an outstanding balance due.
Sorry if that sounds a little bit 'round the houses'.
To this I will add my travel costs>Branch, phone calls icon

, postage etc.
************************* ************************* ***********
I also noticed this earlier, in A&L's newly arrived 'Current Account terms and conditions icon

(printing ref.verso reads:CA2387/IR 10/06,which I take to mean Printed October, 2006):
(any bold, italics and underlining are mine)
Page 3,
3. Changes to these terms and conditions
now see:
Page 4.
3.3 We shall follow the notice provisions of the Banking Code, which currently require that:
3.3.1. If the change is to Your disadvantage We shall tell You about it personally at Your address or Your e-mail address provided to Us)at least
30 days before We can make the change and at any time up to 60 days from the date of the notice You may, without notice, switch your account or close it without having to pay any extra fees or interest for doing this;
3.3.2. We may make any further changes immediately and tell You about it within 30 days.

I would suggest everyone obtains a copy of this little new pamphlet.

From my reading of these threads, I am certain that A&L have not complied with Condition 3.3.1. for many people besides myself.
I will draw their, and the Court's, attention to this, in addition to the 16-day breach of 40 day compliance with my DAR.
2 letters, both dated 13 October, declared my account 'will be closed' both(retrospectively, I assume)on 21 August and 27 October. Although this does not now apply, in neither case was 30 days' notice given. Nor was I given Notice, at any point, of Internet banking being withdrawn.
But 3.3.2.seems a particularly insidious little bit of sneakdom/nose-thumbing.
It needs to be read with later clause 12.1.1.
I have never read such a Document so closely and see many little wrinkles for earning money on our money, or causing awkwardness over it.
Examples at a glance:6.1, 6.2, 8.1.4., 9.1, 10.6, 11.6, 21.1, 22.6(but see 9.1), 27.1('...However, for large amounts'), 33.1, 33.6.
It is, in fact, gripping stuff to get into. We all should.

There also last week's saga of wrongly notified closed/replacement Branches, but that need not be for now.

**caro** · 4th November 2006 23:28

Show the refunds as a minus amount on the date refunded. If the claim is under 5,000 you can't claim costs as it will fall within the small claims track. the good news icon

is neither can A&L claim any costs from you should they suddenly decide they want to go to court (which they won't).

**ampersand** · 5th November 2006 12:30

Thankyou so much for this caro,- done but still struggling with silly questions that pop into mind, through sheer ignorance.
Ah, but methinks a banana cake rendez-vous hoves into view(could hear Master and Commander going on last night).
Hope to have all sorted by return.
I am following your advice to the letter and your warning re:seeing too many claims fail because......it is NOT doom-and-gloom to say this.
Thorughly sensible - forewarmed is forewarned and all that.
It may be chilly, but enjoy the beautiful sun.

**nackers** · 6th November 2006 11:57

personally, it was reasonably clear to me which precise charges were refunded so I just did not include them to make things a bit simpler on the spreadsheet.

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