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    • One other point to note, the more I read, the more I study, the more proficient I feel I am becoming in this area. Make no mistake DBCL if you are reading this, when I win in court, if I have the grounds to make any claims against you, such as breach of GDPR, I shall be doing so.
    • Yep, I read that and thought about trying to find out what the consideration and grace period is at Riverside but not sure I can. I know they say "You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is"  but I doubt they would disclose it to the public, maybe I should have asked in my CPR 31.14 letter? Yes, I think I can get rid of 5 minutes. I am also going to include a point about BPA CoP: 13.2 The reference to a consideration period in 13.1 shall not apply where a parking event takes place. I think that is Deception .... They giveth with one hand and taketh away with the other!
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    • the Town and Country [advertisments ] Regulations 2007 are not easy to understand. Most Council planing officials don't so it's good that you found one who knows. Although he may not have been right if the rogues have not been "controlling" in the car park for that long. The time only starts when the ANPR signs go up, not how long the area has been used as a car park.   Sadly I have checked Highview out and they have been there since at least 2014 . I have looked at the BPA Code of Practice version 8 which covers 2023 and that states Re Consideration and Grace Periods 13.3 Where a parking location is one where a limited period of parking is permitted, or where drivers contract to park for a defined period and pay for that service in advance (Pay & Display), this would be considered as a parking event and a Grace Period of at least 10 minutes must be added to the end of a parking event before you issue a PCN. It then goes on to explain a bit more further down 13.5 You must tell us the specific consideration/grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is. 13.6 Neither a consideration period or a grace period are periods of free parking and there is no requirement for you to offer an additional allowance on top of a consideration or grace period. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________So you have  now only overstayed 5 minutes maximum since BPA quote a minimum of 10 minutes. And it may be that the Riverside does have a longer period perhaps because of the size of the car park? So it becomes even more incumbent on you to remember where the extra 5 minutes could be.  Were you travelling as a family with children or a disabled person where getting them in and out of the car would take longer. Was there difficulty finding a space, or having to queue to get out of the car park . Or anything else that could account for another 5 minutes  without having to claim the difference between the ANPR times and the actual times.
    • Regarding a driver, that HAS paid for parking but input an incorrect Vehicle Registration Number.   This is an easy mistake to make, especially if a driver has access to more than one vehicle. First of all, upon receiving an NTK/PCN it is important to check that the Notice fully complies with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 before deciding how to respond of course. The general advice is NOT to appeal to the Private Parking Company as, for example, you may identify yourself as driver and in certain circumstances that could harm your defence at a later stage. However, after following a recent thread on this subject, I have come to the conclusion that, in the case of inputting an incorrect Vehicle Registration Number, which is covered by “de minimis” it may actually HARM your defence at a later stage if you have not appealed to the PPC at the first appeal stage and explained that you DID pay for parking and CAN provide proof of parking, it was just that an incorrect VRN was input in error. Now, we all know that the BPA Code of Practice are guidelines from one bunch of charlatans for another bunch of charlatans to follow, but my thoughts are that there could be problems in court if a judge decides that a motorist has not followed these guidelines and has not made an appeal at the first appeal stage, therefore attempting to resolve the situation before it reaches court. From BPA Code of Practice: Section 17:  Keying Errors B) Major Keying Errors Examples of a major keying error could include: • Motorist entered their spouse’s car registration • Motorist entered something completely unrelated to their registration • Motorist made multiple keying errors (beyond one character being entered incorrectly) • Motorist has only entered a small part of their VRM, for example the first three digits In these instances we would expect that such errors are dealt with appropriately at the first appeal stage, especially if it can be proven that the motorist has paid for the parking event or that the motorist attempted to enter their VRM or were a legitimate user of the car park (eg a hospital patient or a patron of a restaurant). It is appreciated that in issuing a PCN in these instances, the operator will have incurred charges including but not limited to the DVLA fee and other processing costs therefore we believe that it is reasonable to seek to recover some of these costs by making a modest charge to the motorist of no more than £20 for a 14-day period from when the keying error was identified before reverting to the charge amount at the point of appeal. Now, we know that the "modest charge" is unenforceable in law, however, it would be up to the individual if they wanted to pay and make the problem go away or in fact if they wanted to contest the issue in court. If the motorist DOES appeal to the PPC explaining the error and the PPC rejects the appeal and the appeal fails, the motorist can use that in his favour at court.   Defence: "I entered the wrong VRN by mistake Judge, I explained this and I also submitted proof of payment for the relevant parking period in my appeal but the PPC wouldn't accept that"   If the motorist DOES NOT appeal to the PPC in the first instance the judge may well use that as a reason to dismiss the case in the claimant's favour because they may decide that they had the opportunity to resolve the matter at a much earlier stage in the proceedings. It is my humble opinion that a motorist, having paid and having proof of payment but entering the wrong VRN, should make an appeal at the first appeal stage in order to prevent problems at a later stage. In this instance, I think there is nothing to be gained by concealing the identity of the driver, especially if at a later stage, perhaps in court, it is said: “I (the driver) entered the wrong VRN.” Whether you agree or not, it is up to the individual to decide …. but worth thinking about. Any feedback, especially if you can prove to the contrary, gratefully received.
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Harsh NCP Ticket...


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Evening all,

 

I was considering just paying the ticket i received recently but the more i thought about it the more i thought it was unfair / very harsh. So i thought i would have a dig around on the net and came across this place.

 

briefly, the circumstances of how i ended up with a ticket are:

 

I arrived at brentwood station car park run by, and google tells me, owned by NCP.

 

It was fairly busy in one section of the car park, i am very picky about parking my car next / close to other cars so i bombed down to an area without many cars in it at all and picked a spot on the end of a row of bays. I did pass a signed about permits but thought that it was only for the bays directly by the sign. It would seem the permit area was from that sign and beyond to the end of the car park! Anyway, i bought my ticket for the day (over paid as i didn't have the correct change) and went about my day. came back and bang, i have a ticket for 75 notes on my wind screen!!! Anyone that has been to brentwood station car park (the massive one that's actually across the road from the station itself) will know that it is huge!! Accepted i parked where i should park, but to say that i caused them losses by paying for a space, parking in a permit spot is beyond belief. Notwithstanding that, there is acres, and i mean acres of car parking spaces that do not get used by the permit holders on a daily basis.

 

I have done some reading on this forum, and have come across the wording below. Firstly, do people here think i should have a go and defend the ticket? Secondly, what is the best reason / avenue to go down? i think proof of loss as i paid up and to my mind they lost absolutely nothing by me parking in that spot for the day!! A guy i know gave me a letter which was more about legal fiction, and no contract blah blah, but i wasn't convinced by this as i didn't full understand it (and i don't feel confident defending something with a letter i don't really understand should i need to them back it up further) he also said that signing an appeal letter means you have entered into a contract with the??

 

anyway, below is the wording i found on here, just to show that i have done some reading! :smile:

 

"Please read through the forum and get to understand what the arguments are.

Your defence will basically be

that you deny that you are indebted.

You deny that there was any contract.

That even if there was a contract, any term which they are attempting to rely upon is an unenforceable penalty because the money they claim is in excess of any administrative losses which may have been caused by you.

That the term they are trying to rely upon is also unfair under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts regs. for the same reason - and therefore invalid.

 

And that in any event, they are not the owners of the carpark and furthermore they have no interesticon in the land which entitles them to enter into any contract or to name themselves as a claimant in the proceedings -

and furthermore, they do not have any authority from the landowners to bring any proceedings.

 

However, before we settle this.

Please lay out the exact facts - including who what where nature of signage etc.

 

In the meantime, write a letter to them - recorded and tell them that you want

details breakdown of any losses which they say were sustained by them and which they say were caused by you.

details of any losses which have been sustained by the landowner and which they say were caused by you

Evidence that they have the locus standii to sue you - and also written evidence that they are authorised by the landowner to do so.

 

Tell them that you will be defending their claim and that you will be informing the court that you have made these requests and that if they refuse or fail to provide you with the information, that you will inform the court of that refusal or failure."

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its a speculative invoice .

 

also NCP rarely if at all do court.

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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did they send the popla thingy?

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Evening all,

 

I was considering just paying the ticket i received recently...... Anyway, i bought my ticket for the day (over paid as i didn't have the correct change) and went about my day. came back and bang, i have a ticket for 75 notes on my wind screen!!!."

 

 

 

What is the exact date of recently? Has any contact been made yet with NCP?

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I would make NCP work for their money by first of all appealing to them pointing out that you have paid the prescribed fee for the day and therefore you have caused no loss to them by parking as you did. Secondly, point out that the signage for the permit parking is inadequate and as such you have not breached the contract because you were ignorant of any contractual obligation due to the deficient signage.

They may well reject your appeal but are obliged to give you a POPLA reference number. You can them appeal to POPLA and the reason for your appeal will be that NCP failed to show how a loss was made by you paying the prescribed fee and that no claim for damages breach of contract can occur where contract conditions were not made clear at the time.(Olley v Marlborough Court Ltd 1949 and others). The only damages would be the price of the parking permit so they havent lost a bean.

Finally, if that isnt accepted by POPLA you can feel free to ignore NCP anyway as they will be hammered in court if they tried claiming what they havent lost.

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nope

 

Well you wait and see if you get a NTK in the post between 28- 56 days from 27th Nov.

In the meantime you can read up on the private parking industry....

Edited by armadillo71
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  • 1 month later...

hi, thanks for your replies. I Now have a notice from NCP.

 

I was thinking of writing and refusing to pay on the basis that i paid for a ticket, teher was acres of spaces and they have suffered no loss as a consequence....

 

or should i just ignore it?

 

Thanks

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No. They referred to popla on the ticket. i haven't appealed to anyone. i was waiting to see if i got a ntk, which i got a few days ago.

 

If the 1st correspondence through the post from NCP (NTK), is more than 56 days after the windscreen ticket(NTD), then they can't use POFA for keeper liability.... They can only go after the driver, and they don't know who that is!

Appeal as reg keeper saying you are not liable and under no obligation to name driver.

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Think about this before you "fire all your bullets" ( Other CAGGERS will advise first )

Reply to NCP re. ericsbrother #9. This WILL get rejected...(that's the SUCKER punch).. because they then HAVE to issue a POPLA no. Cost to them £29.50.

Then you appeal to POPLA with "It's timed out"

You only write as the RK.

RESULT

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ps: i received the notice on the 27th January, more than 56 days later.....

27/11--- 27/01... I make it 61 days...timed out

 

 

 

 

What is the issue date on the NTK though?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Date of the windscreen ticket, or "contravention" is the 27th November 2013.

 

The post date of the NTK was the 24th/01/14 (Friday) with the "date this notice is given" being the 28th January 2014. I actually received it on the 27th, which was the Monday.

 

I've just sat down to write a letter and I thought I would check this thread again before i actually go for it.....

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Hi all, today is the 27th day so i am looking to get something in teh post today..... Is the general consensus that I should appeal first as suggested, get a popla and then state that the notice to keeper wasn't issued in time? Or do i simply write stating that the NTK was not issued in accordance with the POFA and assume there is nothing to answer?

 

Cheers

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You cannot appeal because they havent given you a POPLA code. They havent issued one because you havent appealed to them. You havent appealed to them because they are timed out on issuing the NTK and therefore cant claim against you as the keeper of the vehicle. DONT DO ANYTHING unless you get another letter and then you tell the parking co that they were out of time for claiming against the keeper of the vehicle under the PoFA and can go whistle and any other correspondence will be considered as harassment and you will consider civil remedy for that..

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