Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #1
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    Default Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Just recently I was called in to see the compliance Officer at the local Jobcentre. Basically she said that she had information that suggested I had more savings than I declared when I applied for Carers Allowance and Income support, which I have been receiving since April this year. She pointed out the evidence on her computer monitor that I had received 112 (?) per month in interesticon from HBOSicon. I admitted that I had an account that I didn't declare and explained that the money wasn't mine. To cut a long story short, I explained to her that my Brother put the money(34k) into my account to avoid any loss due to a bank collapse. The 34k was excess above the 85k what the Government would compensate for in the event of a bank collapse.
    It was convenient for him and myself to do it his way; him because he didn't want to wait to open a new account with a different bank and the time it took and me because I could have the interest for my own use and pay him back from my Post Office account where my carers allowance and income support was paid in. For me, this meant that I didn't have to make regular trips to the post office and bank to either collect or deposit money and so save on journeys when I was caring for someone with Alzheimer's and who is too much of a danger to themselves to be left alone.
    The compliance Officer suspended my Income Support and gave me a letter to post back to her with any proof of what I said is true or to tell her what I intended to do, such as come off of income support, transfer the money back into his account or spend it until it is below 6k.
    I can prove from my brothers accounts that the money came from his account, that it was transferred at the correct time with the same amounts going into my account and was done to reduce his account to the 85k compensation limit

    Some questions I would like answered are:
    1) How did they find out about an account I never told them about - was it the Inland Revenue and if so was I entitled to be protected under the data protection act?

    2) Is the onus of proof on them to prove it is my money? After all, a person named on a vehicle log book is not necessarily the legal owner or having an MOT doesn't mean to say a car is roadworthy.

    3)Has anyone else been in simmilar circumstances and what was rthe outcome?

    What are my options and what would you do in my position?

    I can't spend it because it isn't mine.

    It seems to me that if I transfer the money back they will just think I'm playing games and they will still assume it's my money but just hidden in another account in my Brothers name.
    Besides this, the money is in a fixed 3 year term and my Brother thinks that if I was to transfer the money back to him all the interest I have received so far will have to be repaid, and thats about 20 months worth at an average of 90 per month.

    If I come off of Income support what would happen next?

    Should I maintain that it is not my money and to hell with the consequences?

    TIA


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    1. THere are a LOT of ways to check which accounts you hold.

    2. Nope. IT is your problem to prove it isnt. After all, the account is in YOUR name.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Quote Originally Posted by Busted1 View Post
    1) How did they find out about an account I never told them about - was it the Inland Revenue and if so was I entitled to be protected under the data protection act?

    2) Is the onus of proof on them to prove it is my money? After all, a person named on a vehicle log book is not necessarily the legal owner or having an MOT doesn't mean to say a car is roadworthy.

    3)Has anyone else been in simmilar circumstances and what was rthe outcome? What are my options and what would you do in my position?
    As above, it is completely normal for the DWP to run checks to see if there are other accounts in a claimants name.

    If the money is in your account and is available for your use then it will be deemed to be available to you to live off and so will affect any benefits you are claiming that are means tested.

    Personally I have not been in this situation but have read on forums similar situations and they money claimed from the DWP has had to be paid back. There is a possibility of criminal charges as you failed to declare an account and this may be deemed as fraud, this can be avoided if people plead guilty and agree repayment amounts.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    I'm confused, surely it would take just as long for you to open a 3 year fixed term savings account as it would your brother?

    Also you may be able to show the timeline of transfer, but even if that was accepted, there is still the interesticon payments - can you prove you paid these back?

    We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.

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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    The DWP have heard these stories before,you are lucky they are not prosecuting you for fraud,if they are giving you the option to voluntarily come off the benefits until you are below the financial limit I would do it,they may at a later date expect you to pay back the overpaymenticon,I suspect the only reason they arent prosecuting you is because it would be difficult for them to prove you in the wrong just as difficult for you to prove you are in the right,it could get very messy for you.


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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Quote Originally Posted by estellyn View Post
    I'm confused, surely it would take just as long for you to open a 3 year fixed term savings account as it would your brother?

    Also you may be able to show the timeline of transfer, but even if that was accepted, there is still the interesticon payments - can you prove you paid these back?

    It was done online as I remember.It would not have made any sense for him to have set up another account in the same bank because we believed the government only gave compensation on a 'per bank' customer and not to accounts held by the same person in the same bank.He could have opened another account with a different bank but he was so worried about events in the banking sector and the time it takes to open a bank account that he opted to open an account under my name.This was convenient for both of us as I had the interest each month to pay for transaction over the Internet etc and even after 15 months of opening that account the amount of Interest after I paid out for purchases never reached more that 200 plus. I paid him from my Post Office account that my Income support and carers allowance was paid into. This arrangement meant that I would do less running around as I would go to the Post Office once every few weeks instead of once a week, a similar principle same applies to the building society, and when looking after someone who has Dementia and who could be a danger to themselves, time saved is essential.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Quote Originally Posted by Busted1 View Post
    It was done online as I remember.It would not have made any sense for him to have set up another account in the same bank because we believed the government only gave compensation on a 'per bank' customer and not to accounts held by the same person in the same bank.He could have opened another account with a different bank but he was so worried about events in the banking sector and the time it takes to open a bank account that he opted to open an account under my name.This was convenient for both of us as I had the interesticon each month to pay for transaction over the Internet etc and even after 15 months of opening that account the amount of Interest after I paid out for purchases never reached more that 200 plus. I paid him from my Post Office account that my Income support and carers allowance was paid into. This arrangement meant that I would do less running around as I would go to the Post Office once every few weeks instead of once a week, a similar principle same applies to the building society, and when looking after someone who has Dementia and who could be a danger to themselves, time saved is essential.
    I think you're going to find it difficult to prove, and may need to go to tribunal to argue your case. do you have receipts of payments of the interest to his bank account that coincide with withdrawals from your account?

    Either way, I don't think there is law on 'I was holding the money for someone else'. You will need to hope that discretion is used in your case.

    Also, not declaring the account in the first place will be a point against you - you may be asked, if you were doing nothing wrong, then why not explain everything from the outset? Why hide the account?

    We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Bizarre that it appears FIS have downgraded this case without even obtaining bank statements first.
    The "its not my money" story is heard all the time & is no excuse.

    FIS have missed out on a potential easy prosecution here & Busted1 should count themselves extremely lucky.
    Do as Compliance say & you'll get away with only an overpaymenticon. Refuse & there's nothing to stop them re-referring it back to FIS to investigate.


  9. #9
    Basic Account Holder Busted1 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    I expect these stories are heard all the time, but mine is genuine. I'm at a loss as to what to do for the best at the moment but compliance seems to offer several solutions, firstly to transfer the money back into my Brothers account; secondly to come off of Income support then pay back any overpaymenticon if asked. On the first option I don't feel it would be a solution because they will just say it looks like I am now hiding the money in my Brothers account and nothing will be gained. Another reason not to transfer it is because all the interesticon paid so far (will be clawed back by the bank from the original investment and that will be about 20 months at an average of 90 pm, beside that, I think I should honor the agreement I made with my Brother. I'm leaning towards the following solution - I'm certainly not going to admit to it being my money when I know it isn't but I may opt to come off of Income support and offer back any 'overpaymenticon'


  10. #10
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    Default Busted..............

    Just recently I was called in to see the compliance Officer at the local Jobcentre. Basically she said that she had information that suggested I had more savings than I declared when I applied for Carers Allowance and Income support, which I have been receiving since April this year. She pointed out the evidence on her computer monitor that I had received 112 (?) per month in interesticon from HBOSicon. I admitted that I had an account that I didn't declare and explained that the money wasn't mine. To cut a long story short, I explained to her that my Brother put the money(34k) into my account to avoid any loss due to a bank collapse. The 34k was excess above the 85k what the Government would compensate for in the event of a bank collapse.
    It was convenient for him and myself to do it his way; him because he didn't want to wait to open a new account with a different bank and the time it took and me because I could have the interest for my own use and pay him back from my Post Office account where my carers allowance and income support was paid in. For me, this meant that I didn't have to make regular trips to the post office and bank to either collect or deposit money and so save on journeys when I was caring for someone with Alzheimer's and who is too much of a danger to themselves to be left alone.
    The compliance Officer suspended my Income Support and gave me a letter to post back to her with any proof of what I said is true or to tell her what I intended to do, such as come off of income support, transfer the money back into his account or spend it until it is below 6k.
    I can prove from my brothers accounts that the money came from his account, that it was transferred at the correct time with the same amounts going into my account and was done to reduce his account to the 85k compensation limit

    Some questions I would like answered are:
    1) How did they find out about an account I never told them about - was it the Inland Revenue and if so was I entitled to be protected under the data protection act?

    2) Is the onus of proof on them to prove it is my money? After all, a person named on a vehicle log book is not necessarily the legal owner or having an MOT doesn't mean to say a car is roadworthy.

    3)Has anyone else been in simmilar circumstances and what was rthe outcome?

    What are my options and what would you do in my position?

    I can't spend it because it isn't mine.

    It seems to me that if I transfer the money back they will just think I'm playing games and they will still assume it's my money but just hidden in another account in my Brothers name.
    Besides this, the money is in a fixed 3 year term and my Brother thinks that if I was to transfer the money back to him all the interest I have received so far will have to be repaid, and thats about 20 months worth at an average of 90 per month.

    If I come off of Income support what would happen next?

    Should I maintain that it is not my money and to hell with the consequences?

    TIA
    It was done online as I remember.It would not have made any sense for him to have set up another account in the same bank because we believed the government only gave compensation on a 'per bank' customer and not to accounts held by the same person in the same bank.He could have opened another account with a different bank but he was so worried about events in the banking sector and the time it takes to open a bank account that he opted to open an account under my name.This was convenient for both of us as to pay for transaction over the Internet etc and even after 15 months of opening that account the amount of Interest after I paid out for purchases never reached more that 200 plus. I paid him from my Post Office account that my Income support and carers allowance was paid into. This arrangement meant that I would do less running around as I would go to the Post Office once every few weeks instead of once a week, a similar principle same applies to the building society, and when looking after someone who has Dementia and who could be a danger to themselves, time saved is essential.
    I expect these stories are heard all the time, but mine is genuine. I'm at a loss as to what to do for the best at the moment but compliance seems to offer several solutions, firstly to transfer the money back into my Brothers account; secondly to come off of Income support then pay back any overpaymenticon if asked. On the first option I don't feel it would be a solution because they will just say it looks like I am now hiding the money in my Brothers account and nothing will be gained. Another reason not to transfer it is because all the interest paid so far (will be clawed back by the bank from the original investment and that will be about 20 months at an average of 90 pm, beside that, I think I should honor the agreement I made with my Brother. I'm leaning towards the following solution - I'm certainly not going to admit to it being my money when I know it isn't but I may opt to come off of Income support and offer back any 'overpaymenticon'
    .

    Your questions was answered in post #2 this one

    Quote Originally Posted by renegadeimp View Post
    1. THere are a LOT of ways to check which accounts you hold.

    2. Nope. IT is your problem to prove it isn't. After all, the account is in YOUR name.
    Money was in your account in your name and you didn't declare this bank account by your own omission !

    Just say No to 0870 and 0845 Numbers,Use

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    here is my view.

    if you are telling the truth, you are legally still wrong, if the money is in your account it is your money, your brother has just trusted you to look after it. I think they could easily come down on you harder and I would accept their offer of cancelling your claim, perhaps your brother who has 100k in savings can fund your living as a return for screwing up your life, actually he can very probably do that out of the interesticon earned on the entire 100k+, all because he couldnt be bothered to open a new account (this story seems bizzare sorry). It would appear there is more to the story such as he is evading tax or something.

    Or you are lieing and have been caught, in which case again you lucky on how soft they treating this. Most people who are on income support can only dream of having 34k in the bank.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Can't you get your brother to write a letter to the DWP and show them proof where that money came from I'm sure then they would not hassle you it's all about showing proof!


    Quote Originally Posted by Busted1 View Post
    I expect these stories are heard all the time, but mine is genuine. I'm at a loss as to what to do for the best at the moment but compliance seems to offer several solutions, firstly to transfer the money back into my Brothers account; secondly to come off of Income support then pay back any overpaymenticon if asked. On the first option I don't feel it would be a solution because they will just say it looks like I am now hiding the money in my Brothers account and nothing will be gained. Another reason not to transfer it is because all the interesticon paid so far (will be clawed back by the bank from the original investment and that will be about 20 months at an average of 90 pm, beside that, I think I should honor the agreement I made with my Brother. I'm leaning towards the following solution - I'm certainly not going to admit to it being my money when I know it isn't but I may opt to come off of Income support and offer back any 'overpaymenticon'



  13. #13
    Basic Account Holder Helen2264 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    I agree with you entire, most of us on Income support or any other benefits my own personal story by the time my benefit reach my bank the next day I would only have 1.34 left, I've had to show my bank statement to the dwp, I always just sent it without worry because all that come in my bank account is my Income support, child tax credit and child benefit, yes 34k I can't even dream of it. I am amazed people have all that money and still trying to claim benefit no wonder we are having great difficult now.


    Quote Originally Posted by worried33 View Post
    here is my view.

    if you are telling the truth, you are legally still wrong, if the money is in your account it is your money, your brother has just trusted you to look after it. I think they could easily come down on you harder and I would accept their offer of cancelling your claim, perhaps your brother who has 100k in savings can fund your living as a return for screwing up your life, actually he can very probably do that out of the interesticon earned on the entire 100k+, all because he couldnt be bothered to open a new account (this story seems bizzare sorry). It would appear there is more to the story such as he is evading tax or something.

    Or you are lieing and have been caught, in which case again you lucky on how soft they treating this. Most people who are on income support can only dream of having 34k in the bank.



  14. #14
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    The only way to deal with this IMO< is to provide as much and as complete evidence as you can to show where the money came from, when it was put into the account, when any debits from the amount occured, interesticon gained, items bought etc etc. If you spent ANY of this money at all, they will put the onus directly on you as to them it is YOUR money and you are looking for a way out.

    They see and deal with things like this day in and day out, so they err on the side of caution until you can prove conclusively that it isnt your money

    Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..


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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Quote Originally Posted by Helen2264 View Post
    I agree with you entire, most of us on Income support or any other benefits my own personal story by the time my benefit reach my bank the next day I would only have 1.34 left, I've had to show my bank statement to the dwp, I always just sent it without worry because all that come in my bank account is my Income support, child tax credit and child benefit, yes 34k I can't even dream of it. I am amazed people have all that money and still trying to claim benefit no wonder we are having great difficult now.
    to me its just greed and it sort of makes me angry, for people like myself, this help of the state is my only form of income, its my survival, I have no backup other than I guess would be to beg for help of family or people in the street. Or maybe a miracle cure or something.

    To claim with 10s of thousands in the bank is just greed and fuels the claims that social security is too soft in this country.


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    Default Re: Called in by Compliance Officer to explain undeclared bank account

    Busted1 -

    I've only just spotted this, but assuming the issue isn't resolved, could I strongly suggest you take a look at what the guidance for DWP decision makers regarding capital actually says? I can't post the link because the forum software won't let me (new user), but if you google dmgch29.pdf you'll find it. You want para 29070 onwards.

    I'm rusty about this. but as I understand it the BA need to consider two things. First is whether you are the legal owner of the capital in question. As it's in an account in your name, then it seems to me likely that you are the legal owner. Before taking it into account however they then also have to consider who is the beneficial owner - i.e. who can actually access and use the capital for their own purposes. Usually the legal owner is also the beneficial owner, however in this case you are asserting that the beneficial owner is your brother. It would strengthen your case if there was a trust agreement drawn up when the account was created, especially as you assert the capital's beneficial owner is a close adult relative. Evidence from your brother in writing isn't required, but it will certainly help.

    The law does allow someone to be the legal owner of capital in which they have no personal beneficial interesticon and that capital not to be taken into account against their claim - a classsic example is a parent holding a trust fund for a child. Please note that the rules are different for Housing Benefit, I believe.

    It is for you to prove you are not the beneficial owner. It is important you are open and honest with the Benefts Agency. This isn't a matter of morality or ethics, the "right thing to do", it's a matter of facts and correctly applying the relevant law and what they decide will come down to what they believe the facts actually are and how they interpret the law.

    Do not volunteer to close your claim - it won't make any alleged overpaymenticon "go away" as they can still pursue you for it, and if they are considering prosecution it won't necessarily put them off that either.

    If the BA decide against you it is always worth appealing to a Tribunal to get a second stage reconsideration of your case.

    I strongly suggest that you see someone who's an expert in benefits law face to face as this kind of thing can be horribly complicated to sort out. The law isn't simple, every case is different, decisions are made on the facts of individual cases and there's no guarantee the Benefits Agency staff will correctly interpret their own law. You could try your local CAB or local authority welfare rights or similar, or a solicitor who specialises in benefits law.



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