Is there an example on the CAG of what "should" be on the reverse of that signed agreement page?

I'm concerned because a judge will look at this and see all the required things present. The correct interest charges, the correct late payment charges etc. What I need to do is show what Lowell "have not" provided by example.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?474814-Hoist-Cohen-Court-Claim-Barclaycard-debt-SB&p=5037267#post5037267

WS example

ok phaps up garden path leading

obv on the reverse of that

is the mailing address

its a fold over send back jobbie

it says its am agreement at the top

but in the text it says this application.

and where the foldover is , the bit below with your sig has been cut n pasted short

its not a full A5 1/2 A4 page

so why have they done that

and what is missing and WHY do that?

dx

try this

Thanks for that. The only problem with this is that I don't think that a judge will not accept that the prescribed terms are not present because Lowell have provided them. It's the last page of the Consumer Credit Agreement that I uploaded and clearly shows the terms that were in force at the time the agreement was taken out. For something to be a 'True Copy' it does not need to be the "original" document as long as the documents provided go to make up what "would have been" the original document and in this case Lowell have done that.

Now, as to whether "we" think that is right is immaterial because it's what the judge thinks that counts and so far, given the documents provided by Lowell and the fact that I am not disputing that I do owe this money I don't think I have a leg to stand on, not even on a technicality.

The ONLY things that stand out are where you pointed out that the DN refers to the wrong section of the contract...section 8 when I think it should have been section 7 and also that Capital one were I think in breach of their own terms because it clearly states in section 8 where it deals with Monthly Statement "The statement will show all transactions debited to your account and payments made since your last transaction"

Given that they have provided nearly 5 years of statements with NO transactions at all but just totals then I would think this breaks the terms of their own contract?

Having said that. This particular litigation is between me and Lowell not me and Capital One so I don't think the judge will consider either the DN or the failure to comply with the contract and will simply concentrate on the fact that I admit I owe the money and that will be the end of it. A CCJ AND a large debt to pay. Not a great outcome for me.

So will be in court tomorrow. Any final words of advice would be much appreciated

Best of luck Ds3...simply listen and ask questions...stick to your defence and witness statement and dont let their counsel lead the judge...assuming they even turn up.

Regards

Andy

Thanks Andy, much appreciated. Will update on the result.

something very odd thing happened.

We arrived to the court on-time and were signed in.

The hearing was listed on the roster for today.

Hearing time came and went with no sign of anyone from Lowell.

15 minutes past and I was called into the court

...main court room not a side room.

Judge was there,

asked me what the whole thing was about

and then he said he had no notes on the case

and could I go an ask the girl outside for them...which I did.

I waited outside again and the girl disappeared for a while.

Then she came out and said that apparently the hearing was vacated yesterday by Lowell who had tried to contact me via mobile phone and left a text message

..which I did not receive otherwise I would not have been there.

Lowell also have my email address but didn't think to use that.

So, wasted journey and I am none the wiser as to what is going on.

Any thoughts on that?

Have you rang Lowell to see what they said?

Sounds like it was discontinued but hard to say...

Have you rang Lowell?

No I won't deal with Lowell on the phone. They know that already. I don't trust them to stick to anything that is not in writing.

Email Lowell *__* ^__^

Im just trying to help get you an answer

You've won if they issued a notice of discontinuance...

Sounds promising and looks like a notice of Discontinuance should be winging your way.....you need to check with the court what the final order is...dismissed or discontinued.

Ideally you should have gone back into the court room and asked the Judge what is verdict was?

Andy

Thanks guys.

I don't think the judge was at all interested in hearing the case although he did listen to what I was saying and "appeared" to think it was reasonable.

he wanted the notes and without those and after finding out the hearing was vacated that was that, another case had already started.

So just to be clear.

All I know at the moment is the hearing was "vacated" not discontinued or dismissed so I think the thing to do is just wait to hear from the court or Lowell or both.

The court usher said they would be in touch to rearrange the hearing and make it a priority but not sure why she said that. Perhaps because she thought we were bringing a case against Lowell?

Maybe something in my witness statement rattle Lowell.

Perhaps they thought I would not take this to the wire?

There are quite a few date discrepancies in Lowells witness statement plus of course there is the issue whereby Capital One broke their own credit agreement by not providing transaction details on over 5 years worth of statements...it's in clause 8.

Anyway, let's see what happens.

I doubt they will be too enthusiastic in paying another hearing fee or pursuing it further..most probably dismissed.

I wont amend your thread title just yet until you do the checks or receive a General Order DS3...update as and when.

Well done

Regards

Andy

Thanks Andy.

My lovely wife who was paying more attention than I was says the court usher didn't say the hearing would be rebooked. She said she didn't know why it had been vacated and the court would be in touch soon to explain further.

I have to wonder why Lowell left it so late to 'vacate' the hearing and surely they need to give more notice than one day? They could have emailed me. They have my email address.

They probably had no option and couldn't get a rent a sol.....anyway they can only get a refund if they vacate within the prescribed period (7 days I recall)...not that that bothers you:wink:

Certainly doesn't bother me if Lowell want to throw away their money

I'm not quite clear on what 'vacate' means in terms of this legal process? I assume it means they are just cancelling the current hearing and nothing more i.e taking it off the roster.

Lowell then have to pay the fee again if they want to go ahead with this?

and if they did can they then tack the costs on or can they only claim for the initial costs?

Only initial fixed costs in Small Claims Track...vacate is to vacate the hearing...but 1 days notice is going to get right up the DJ nose and he most probably dismissed their case...lets wait and see what transpires.

Ok so just received a notification of new trial date! It's set for the 31st August. No explanation as to why the previous trial was vacated and at such short notice.

Must admit I am a bit annoyed about this. I complied with everything my end but Lowell get away with not complying their end and I'm back where I started. What happened to the explanation about why the trial was vacated and how were they able to do that at just one days notice?

It will all be taken into consideration if and when it actually gets to trial

Ok so here's the update after going to court today.

Before going into court I did have a discussion with Lowell's solicitor and we discussed making an offer which I was happy to do but which Lowell themselves rejected and instead asked me to pay £60 per month and the total would have been just over £5200.

I decided against this and went ahead with the case.

First the lack of appearance last time by Lowell was not taken into account at all.

The judge let Lowell's solicitor speak first and went through their case and the points I had raised in defence.

Then I was allowed to speak and highlight the reasons why I thought the case should be dismissed including the documents not being a true copy,

section 8 of the contract stating I should receive itemised statements when in fact 5 years of statements were only summaries and not itemised.

I also outlined how I had made offers of payment on several occasions in the past which had been refused and how Lowell had failed to provide all documents when the case was referred for mediation so even then I was open to negotiation but could not proceed.

Bottom line is the judge completely ruled in favour of Lowell.

He ignored the fact they didn't turn up at the last hearing and only gave one days notice and also didn't notify me.

He disregarded the lack of detail in the statements and accepted that these only needed to be summaries.

He didn't know it had been referred to mediation but that didn't seem to matter.

He did say it should never have come to court and that a negotiated settlement should have been reached but he could see no reason not to rule in favour of Lowell.

So an order was made that I should pay the full amount including over £600 in court costs.

He did however dismiss the solicitors claim for his appearance fee of £230...which I found a bit confusing.

He dismissed than on the grounds that the case should never have reached court but at the same time ignored my same statement that a negotiated settlement could have been reached earlier if it were not for Lowell refusing my offers of payment.

The judge then asked how much I could afford to pay,

which I said was £50 per month but he decided that was too little and I should pay £70 per month starting on the 31st of September.

So all in all a complete waste of time and effort.

One of them was he Ds3Sport ?

Judge lottery and your paying his salary......okay so lets look at payment options.

You can now submit a fully particularised I&E by way of an N244 and request a redetermination with your new offer of monthly payment...there is no fee for this application provided it is made within 14 days of the date of judgment.

Regards

Andy

Thanks for that Andy, definitely much appreciated advice

Yeah I pretty much had a feeling this was going to head in the wrong direction as soon as I entered the room.

Everyone was very pleasant of course but still...costly experience to say the least.

Not that I am complaining really.

It's a debt I do owe and I have never claimed otherwise but I thought that Capital One and Lowell should have at least been held accountable and followed the correct procedures. Seems to me they were given a lot of slack whereas I was not. It was really all about affordability not refusal to pay.

Still was an experience and I learned a lot from it...in particular not to end up in this situation again!

Will get that N244 filled in and let you know what happens.