Written by John Kruse, one of the leading experts on Bailiff Law, this consumer friendly guide is essential reading for anyone who comes into contact with a bailiff.
The book is easy to understand and clearly explains the rights
a bailiff has, and also what they cannot do when collecting debts and repossessing goods etc.
our american style Samsung fridge freezer packed up 2 weeks after the two year warranty ran out. according the the sale of goods act '79 items such as this should last a minimum of 6 years, if not then they are deemed to be unfit for purpose (or something like that). we challenged Argos about this and they said they would repair or replace the item if we could prove that the failure was due to a manufacturing defect - fair enough. after huge difficulties getting someone out to look at the fridge, an engineer dismantled the fridge and told us verbally that it was likely to be the main circuit board and that in his professional opinion it was a manufacturing defect. we got the report from the company but it didn't say anything about the failure being due to a manufacturing defect. Argos also picked up on this obviously. we asked them if they could add this to the report as this is what the engineer has said but they refused, saying that they were not prepared to argue with a large organisation like Samsung. so we have a £700 fridge freezer which is just over 2 years old and now useless. both Argos and Samsung have been staggeringly unhelpful and useless throughout this whole farce and there doesn't seem to be a single engineer with any backbone to tell the truth about a situation we seem to have hit a brick wall, is there anything else we can do?
I was fighting a similar case regarding a fridge freezer, why do you have to prove a fault?, the act also says DURABLE and fit for the purpose its not durable if it only lasts 2 years. look at some of the Environmental sites regarding landfill etc.they state that the average life of a Fridge freezer is between 10 and 15 years use this information.
The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) says that goods should be as follows:
Of satisfactory quality.
This means the goods must meet the standards that any reasonable person would expect, taking into account the description, the price and all other relevant information. In some circumstances, the retailer may be liable for any statement made by the manufacturer about the goods.
Satisfactory quality includes the appearance and finish of the goods, their safety and durability and whether they are free from defects (including minor faults)
Fit for the purpose
that goods of this type are generally sold. They must also be fit for any specific or particular purpose made known to the seller at the time of the agreement.
and
"I purchased goods over a year ago and the guarantee has now expired. The trader has advised me that he does not have any responsibility for the goods. Is he right?"
No! Guarantees are extra to your legal rights. If you can show that the goods were not of satisfactory quality at the time of sale i.e. they were not as durable as it is reasonable to expect, then you may have a claim against the trader or finance company (if applicable) for compensation.
The above from TS's website.
The test that applies is the test of reasonableness. Ask the "man on the street" whether he would expect a £600 fridge to last more than 2 years. If he says "yes", there's your test.
I suggest a VERY strongly worded letter to Argos, stating that you have now taken further advice, that you are aware that they have been leading you up the garden path with their talks of manufacturing faults, that as per SOGA, you estimate that you fridge was NOT of satisfactory quality, and that you want (look here : Trading Standards Central - Trading Standards and Consumer Protection information for the UK for the options available to you) within 14 days, or you will see them in court.
They are bang outof order, and they know it.
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
Thank you so much for your replies, I will certainly do that! I expect it will have to go to court as the person dealing with it all is so pigheaded! So would it be the small claims court? kind regards
Suzy and Steven
The test that applies is the test of reasonableness. Ask the "man on the street" whether he would expect a £600 fridge to last more than 2 years. If he says "yes", there's your test.
I have a conceptual test, based on the notion of fair dealing: if the vendor thinks it reasonable that the item should cease to function shortly after the manufacturer's warranty has expired, they should be prepared to say so.
Is the vendor prepared to say: "Items purchased from us may not work for longer than the manufacturer's warranty period."?
If not, then they do not think it is reasonable for the item to fail just after the warranty period, either.
this should last a minimum of 6 years Just to clarify that the sales of good act states you have upto 6 years to claim and report that the product did not meet the contract at time of purchase, whilst this would include lasting a reasonable amount of time.
This is not how long a product has a warrenty for, and is not how long a product should last. This is just the max time a case can be allowed into court.
(Don't want people thinking everything should last 6 years now).
If you can show that the goods were not of satisfactory quality at the time of sale i.e. they were not as durable as it is reasonable to expect After 6 months, it is upto the customer to show that the product did not meet standards at time of purchase
The main thing argos want to clarify is that it didn't break due to misuse etc. (That it is in deed a break of contract, which you have to prove to them due to the time period)
But yes they are being very picky. The best thing I can see to do, is to phone the manufacture or even go into argos, and ask as a customer not as someone who is refunding, how long a fridge frezer should last for, mention refund, get a name and reference to back you up. Also can you not get the engineer to rewrite a report with his honest opinion on the manufactering fault, or agree with agros an independent engineer (yes another one), inspects, and should it be a break of contract they will refund the cost.
However should it go to court, and 'don't quote me on it', white goods should last more then 2 years, and would say reasonably a min of 5. (and its usually bad practice to say but a £700 ... should last this long, because to be honest so should a £100 one.)
Just to clarify though, there is no 6 year warranty in the SOGA (a warrant is a guarentee, which the retailer or manufacture gives you in addiction to the SOGA), it is how long since purchase a case can go to court (5 years from discovery of the fault in scotland), and is not how long a product should last.
I am happy to offer helpful advise in many consumer problems based on my retail experience. I do not represent any company, and any advise I do offer is my opinion and how I understand the law. I have no authority to create any terms for any company I do work for and will just nudge you in the right direction without breeching their trust.
thank you Blitz for your reply, the trouble is we have only been able to get one engineer from the whole of the yellow pages, out to even look at it, and they didnt even want to. The engineer that came said yes it is a manufacturing fault, but the company that he came from said quote "We are not prepared to take on the likes of Samsung, we were never going to say anything except wear and tear as we cannot prove it isnt", they even said something about how much food we put in the fridge?? and these are samsungs named engineers. Even a guy we spoke to from samsung said the circuit board is a manufacturing fault not wear and tear. But that engineer company will only say wear and tear to argos, hence the letter saying they will do nothing.
its just so awful, we spent so much on this fridge freezer and cannot afford to replace it, the reason we bought one so big is that we have 6 children, (one of whom is a premature baby), so we really need it to be working. we cannot get anyone to repair it even if we paid, nobody want to touch it!! even samsung cannot find us anybody, but they are not bothered as our contract is not with them!
Blitz, what do you think my best course of action is then, my complaint has gone all the way to where it can go in argos, but i seem to be at a standstill. The obnoxious person dealing with it just states wear and tear, even though the engineer said it is the circuit board, evaporator and sensors that are faulty.
I used to work at argos too, (but only as a temp year after year) I'm thinking now perhaps I should have seen the manager at my local store who I have worked under, maybe she would help, but then again its all targets now not customer service!
Hmm. I think there is some false info here to be honest. The 6 year limit means that the retailer should help you with the product within the 6 year time period. However, this can mean as little as putting you in touch with manufacturer for a chargeable repair. It does not mean they have some kind of responsibility to repair or replace the item gratis. As for proving it is a manufacturing fault, if "wear and tear" after 2 years is judged to be unreasonable for such an expensive product, then this IS a manufacturing fault. The reason argos are asking you to do this (and rightly so, contrary to some other views here) is they are quite within their rights to ensure that this fault is not due to user misuse.
7 years in retail customer service
Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years
By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.
Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.
First of all something like this is way way over my head, I can usually handle anything upto a store managers descion
I doubt seeing the manager will help much, as (s)he will still have to phone up argos direct for a pick up, will have to quote the order number, or details leading to the order number, so it will flag up on the agros direct system.
This sort of problem would be refused at store level, and refered to customer services, or argos direct. They would still need to check the the fair and tear, and try to worm there way out of it.
Unfortunatly unless you can find an engineer that will agree and stick by the manufactoring, theres nothing I can see you to do. Even if you took the case to court you still have to find a engineer that you both agree on (independent) to agree that it is faulty.
Sorry, but short of suddenly becoming a f/f engineer theres nothing else I can sudgest. Even legally I don't have experience with cases going to court, or engineers not agreeing.
If you do decide to take any legal action, always take real legal and expert advice first, as the case seems to be very risky.
I really hope something with this goes your way, and hope someone with a little more knowledge then me flags this and responds.
Just on your last comment:
Argos does try with its customer services and has introduced new training material within the last 3 months for this. Argos very target based, but there are the few of us that would rather make sure you get a fair deal.
I am happy to offer helpful advise in many consumer problems based on my retail experience. I do not represent any company, and any advise I do offer is my opinion and how I understand the law. I have no authority to create any terms for any company I do work for and will just nudge you in the right direction without breeching their trust.
From when I worked at Argos, and working at other retailers, and knowing other people who worked at other retailers, I must say that I agree with blitz...they are, in my experience, a long way ahead of most other retailers in their customer service procedures.
7 years in retail customer service
Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years
By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.
Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.
Thank you all for your replies, so does argos have an obligation to find me someone to repair it? I cannot even find someone to pay to repair it, so if they can't what then? Is it just to the tip, or do they have some kind of responsibility to ensure I have some kind of contact for repairs? samsung do not do their own repairs, I have already tried that and they just say that they are under no obligation to find me a repairer as the contract is not with them. Sheesh, moral of this story DO NOT BUY SAMSUNG!!! (or from argos, I will never use them again and I have bought just about everything from them in the past!)
thank you all once again for your time,
kindest regards
Suzy x
If you have been unable to find a repair agent by the weekend I will have a look into it when I get to work.
I understand your disappointment and anger with samsung and argos, however you do have too look at it from there pespective as well. Most companys after two years would check about misuse and wear and tear, and it is very unfortunate that an engineer will not right down manufactoring fault.
Anyways I will see what I can find out at work.
I am happy to offer helpful advise in many consumer problems based on my retail experience. I do not represent any company, and any advise I do offer is my opinion and how I understand the law. I have no authority to create any terms for any company I do work for and will just nudge you in the right direction without breeching their trust.
I have a Whirlpool American fridge freezer, It started playing up at 18 months old, I had to get a Whirlpool engineer out as no one else would touch it and for less than 10 minutes and one new printed circuit board, it cost me over £170.00.
Can I go back to Whirlpool with the same argument ??
PINKPETAL
Lloyds TSB (1) Statements received LLoyds TSB (2) Statements Received LLoyds TSB (3) Statements received Halifax Credit Card (1) Statements received Halifax Credit Card (2) SARS request Sent RBOS (Halifax) Credit Card (3) SARS has Elapsed, on 54 days now Barclaycard - Goodwill offer of £264.00
By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.
Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.
Thank you all for your replies, so does argos have an obligation to find me someone to repair it? I cannot even find someone to pay to repair it, so if they can't what then? Is it just to the tip, or do they have some kind of responsibility to ensure I have some kind of contact for repairs? samsung do not do their own repairs, I have already tried that and they just say that they are under no obligation to find me a repairer as the contract is not with them. Sheesh, moral of this story DO NOT BUY SAMSUNG!!! (or from argos, I will never use them again and I have bought just about everything from them in the past!)
thank you all once again for your time,
kindest regards
Suzy x
Well, whether the store sold faulty goods will be a matter of opinion.
Ultimately, if you and the store cannot resolve your dispute, you must either walk away or take some other action.
If you take legal action, then a court will listen to you, listen to the vendor, and decide *on the balance of probabilities* who is right.
On your side, you have the fact that the thing has stopped working. And you will doubtless state that you've only used it normally. On their side, unless they can produce evidence it was not faulty at the time of sale, they have nothing.
Sure, you have to prove it has failed due to a defect present at the time of sale. But I believe all that means is, you have to persuade a judge that, on the balance of probabilities, that is the case.
So: which way would you decide, if you were the judge?
There must me a pretty good chance a judge would decide in your favour ... I'd have thought 50:50 at least, and more like 75:25.
Now, the fridge costs £700, and let's suppose we agree it has an expected life of seven years. So its value falls by £100 a year ... you've had a couple of years use, so should be expecting about 70% of the cost to you of a replacement ... or £500.
From the store's point of view, if they contest the case, they will have to pay court fees and lawyer's fees, and possibly the store manager will have to take half a day off to attend court. So maybe they will incur costs of more than £500, even if they win. And if they lose, they will have to pay £500 to you on top, plus your court fees.
The cost to them of a replacement fridge is less than the selling price ... maybe only £500. So it may actually cheaper for them to give in than win the case ...and they only have a 25-50% chance of winning!
But a court case is a lot of hassle and expense for you; you're better off avoiding it if you can.
So, I suggest you, while recognising you can sue and probably win, take the view that you catch more flies with jam than with vinegar.
Aim to show in your dealings with them that you are a reasonable person, that you've always been happy with their service which is why you shop there, that you can understand they need to verify that the complaint is valid, but that ultimately, if the member of staff dealing with the complaint were in your shoes, they'd expect a replacement.
If they offer you a replacement, take it. If they offer you a replacement for £250, take it - you have had use out of the failed appliance, and that means you are paying £250 and they are paying £250 of the cost price to them of a replacement fridge - a reasonable compromise. If they offer you a credit note for £500, take it if you can afford to. If they offer to pay for repairs, politely decline; tell them you will deliver the fridge to them if they give a binding undertaking to return it repaired within a month, and if they guarantee the repair.
But if all fails, sue ( I really doubt it will get that far, unless you are really rude to their staff.) Bear in mind you may lose, even though the odds are in your favour.
If you do end up taking legal action, claim *all* your reasonable costs, including the cost of any temporary replacement refrigerator and freezer (you might be able to get them cheaply from a charity shop.). The greater the size of your claim, the easier it is for Argos' lawyers to demonstrate to the store that they have saved the store money by persuading you to take less.
Quote "On your side, you have the fact that the thing has stopped working. And you will doubtless state that you've only used it normally. On their side, unless they can produce evidence it was not faulty at the time of sale, they have nothing."
From what I understand from the SOGA is that it isn't upto the retailer to prove that it wasn't faulty when purchased due to the time frame. As I have stated I don't have experience in court cases and maybe you now something I don't. But should argos not have to prove anything, I personally don't see a high success rate.
As with the store manager court etc, This case would not be dealt with by a store, and the descion would be out of a store managers hands, and more upto the legal department on where they stand. So it would be upto the HRG lawyers (I assume) to decide whether it would be viable to goto court or to offer damages.
Note that this is my only opinion and goes beyond my understanding (from legal knowledge and company legal policy) as I still need to read some court case studies, that might be the next step however if you did want to persue this further before you do take legal action. You could also try contacting trading standards to see if they could offer any advice
I am happy to offer helpful advise in many consumer problems based on my retail experience. I do not represent any company, and any advise I do offer is my opinion and how I understand the law. I have no authority to create any terms for any company I do work for and will just nudge you in the right direction without breeching their trust.
Thanks all again for your advice, I think i might give it one last try, what have I got to lose, I already have a broken fridge and I won't be any worse off for writing with the things Tim says.
I have contacted trading standards, they say that the fridge cannot be wear and tear withing the reasonable durability time, (and 2 years is not reasonable), they say that the SOGA states it should last a minimum of 6 years, (that is why there is the 6 years to bring to court), and unless Argos can prove that we have misused or damaged the fridge, they will have to replace/repair or I can go to court and have an excellent chance as tim says!
I would like to avoid court if poss as having 6 children I can do without the expense for one and the hassle for two! But if it comes to that then I might just do it anyway!
thank you all so much for your time, this site is so good, to be honest I was ready just to give it all up, but now I feel like fighting!
kindest regards
Suzy x
I have contacted trading standards, they say that the fridge cannot be wear and tear withing the reasonable durability time, (and 2 years is not reasonable), they say that the SOGA states it should last a minimum of 6 years, (that is why there is the 6 years to bring to court), and unless Argos can prove that we have misused or damaged the fridge, they will have to replace/repair or I can go to court and have an excellent chance as tim says!
So pretty much what I'd said from the start until people started coming up with all kinds of odd arguments then
Good luck and keep us posted.
Apologies to people who I was in the process of helping, I may be gone some time.
sale of goods act 6 year warranty
, if not then they are deemed to be unfit for purpose (or something like that). we challenged Argos about this and they said they would repair or replace the item if we could prove that the failure was due to a manufacturing defect - fair enough. after huge difficulties getting someone out to look at the fridge, an engineer dismantled the fridge and told us verbally that it was likely to be the main circuit board and that in his professional opinion it was a manufacturing defect. we got the report from the company but it didn't say anything about the failure being due to a manufacturing defect. Argos also picked up on this obviously. we asked them if they could add this to the report as this is what the engineer has said but they refused, saying that they were not prepared to argue with a large organisation like Samsung. so we have a £700 fridge freezer which is just over 2 years old and now useless. both Argos and Samsung have been staggeringly unhelpful and useless throughout this whole farce and there doesn't seem to be a single engineer with any backbone to tell the truth about a situation we seem to have hit a brick wall, is there anything else we can do?
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by Bookworm
Re: sale of goods act 6 year warranty
Re: sale of goods act 6 year warranty
Re: sale of goods act 6 year warranty
Re: sale of goods act 6 year warranty
