Marc Gander - The Consumer Survival Handbook


A 220 page introduction to all things consumer related by our own BankFodder.

Includes energy companies, mobile phone providers, retailers, banks, insurance companies,debt collection agencies, reclaim companies, secondhand car sellers, cowboy garages, cowboy builders and all the rest who put their own profits before you.

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Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

£19.99 + £1.50 (P&P)


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  1. #1
    Basic Account Holder IS IT ME? Novitiate



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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    I have a friend who is with a sub prime lender and has a copy of his deed with is only signed by him and his solicitor as being a ture copy nothing else. So far I have been able to keep him in his home and have a court hearing with regard to who really owns his mortgageicon? and 2 the deed gives them no right to his home.
    In so far as they will not give a statement of truth to say they really own the mortgageicon or that no one else does or a copy of the mortgage charge at companies house.
    any help is this would be grateful.


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Hello Is It Me ?

    Your friend can obtain a copy of the charge at companies house, online via the Companies House website. It will only cost 1

    It used to be a companies house form 395 but it now a MG01

    All your friend need do is enter the details of the company involved and pay 1 and he/she will have a copy of the charge at companies house.

    Hope the above helps


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    In terms of your request for a statement of truth, have you applied to the court to make an order that the lender "clarify any matter which is in dispute in the proceeding" or "give additional information in relation to any such matter, whether or not the matter is contained or referred to in a statement of case.", as per part 18icon of the CPR ?


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Hi Is it Me, Ben..

    "I have a friend who is with a sub prime lender and has a copy of his deed with is only signed by him and his solicitor as being a ture copy nothing else. So far I have been able to keep him in his home and have a court hearing with regard to who really owns his mortgageicon? and 2 the deed gives them no right to his home.
    In so far as they will not give a statement of truth to say they really own the mortgageicon or that no one else does or a copy of the mortgage charge at companies house.
    any help is this would be grateful."

    If the copy of the Deed has been obtained from HMLR - then it will be a true copy as you say, this is pursuant to LRA 2002 s.67 and can be used in a court of Law to confirm and show that it has not been 'executed' and therefore not 'delivered' by the Lender.

    'Execution' and 'Delivery' are party to the legal formality of Deeds of Conveyance and are necessary for its validity on the pat of both the Borrower and Lender.

    Contrary to the misguided belief that it is only the Borrower that must sign the Deed; it is in fact necessary for the Lender to at least 'execute' - for, it is only where a Lender has 'executed' the deed, that the presumption of delivery may hold good without a contrary intention being proven.....but that is clearly not the case presented here, and is therefore not at issue.

    Confirming who 'owns the mortgage' is not a Borrowers true or main concern.... securitisation is tantamount to the Lender 'going off on a folly of its own volition'.... and has nothing to do with the main concern of the underlying Borrowers relationship with the Original Lender per se.......that's to say, if the Lender has entered into a third party relationship off the back of a purported legal interest in the Borrowers mortgage - his risk is that the Borrower finds out that the Deed is void.....in finding that the Lender was at no time bound.... if he is not... then....knowledge and evidence of the sale assists the Borrower prove; not only that the Deed is void... but that the Lender has benefited from the Deed that he did not execute.... Halsbury's Law says the Lender must make good his obligations to the Borrower in such an instant....this would of course be the 'obligations' implied by Statute at LPA s.85 (freeholds) s.86 (Leaseholds) and is to do with the Borrowers inherent legal right to redemption.... regardless of the Lenders conduct. (see the thread on Mortgage Deeds headed up by Ben)

    There is no legal right to possession as relied upon by the Deed you speak of.

    The 'right to possession' is based purely due to the 'operation of Law' - that's to say, HMLR registered the Deed without regard to its validity - and by virtue of LRA 2002 s.58 - the Deed took on 'legal' status 'by operation of Law'.

    However, do remember, if the Deed itself has not conveyed a legal interest (LPA s.52)...(which it will not have done, due to not being 'executed' or 'delivered' by the Lender) then any 'legal status' as granted purely by 'operation of Law' is subject to the LPA s. 1 (7) - to confirm that the Lenders reliance on s.58 is misplaced for the legal effect of s. 1 (7) causes the 'conclusive' nature of s.58 to have no more than an equitable status.

    In any event - sub-prime lending/ers is/are ruthless - I would guide that if there is a suspended possession order already in place - do not assume that because you are in court, that they will not simply wait patiently for you to slip up - when you do....they will pounce for the warrant of execution/possession.... best thing to do.. is to do whatever you are doing to keep the friend in their home until you put your case together and present it in a timely manner...

    On the CPR 18 request.... an application to court must be made and is correct if it is a small claimsicon hearing. Requesting the information without an order from the court will not have any effect as such requests have no effect without an order from the court in small claims.

    On the Companies House info.... it does no harm to do this...more ammo,...extrinsic evidence.... especially when you find the Original Lender has no such charge registered for the year your friend took out the mortgage - or it shows the charge has been satisfied, yet your friend is still being pursued for the debt....(we know of course, it will not show any such charge as it will have been satisfied due to securitisation and the 'charge' will be found in the name of the SPV)...

    If you need more specifics - just let me know : )

    Apple


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    Basic Account Holder geoffthechef Novitiate



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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Some great ideas and minds at work here...I think once you nail this for good then what follows will be justice..Keep going.....


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Applecart,
    I would like to be able to send you some thing to look at first before posting as the other side are on this form and need to make sure it is water tiet if you know what I mean


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Quote Originally Posted by IS IT ME? View Post
    Applecart,
    I would like to be able to send you some thing to look at first before posting as the other side are on this form and need to make sure it is water tiet if you know what I mean
    Hi Is It Me.... I hear you.....

    Site Team, could you please make this a possibility by giving me back the PM facility please?



    Apple


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Quote Originally Posted by geoffthechef View Post
    Some great ideas and minds at work here...I think once you nail this for good then what follows will be justice..Keep going.....
    The issue we face is that there are a number of difference scenerios, and stages at which Borrowers are at.....i.e - some are oblivious, some are aware and curious, some have had the initial claim for possession commenced, some have suspended possession orders in place, some have already been re-possessed......there are clearly going to be different considerations depending upon which stage of the Securitisation procedure one is at... and of course, what steps if any a Borrower has already taken to address the issue...

    Clearly, without being able to be sure which stage a Borrower is at, its difficult to truly know what information to post ....the position is further frustrated because Borrowers are fearful of posting which stage they are up to....so, I can only be 'general' in the posts over and above being directly 'specific' - which is a bit of a shame really....

    Hopefully the Site Team will give us some breathing space and allow the PM facility - or at least advise, why PM is not being made available at this crucial time - given that we now can prove and show that the balance is firmly in the Borrowers favor??

    Apple


  9. #9
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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    In the meantime......

    This may help with a the understanding as to why a Deed - that's the Deed that relates to the conveyance/transfer between the Original Lender and the Borrower.....must be signed by both the Lender and the Borrower....

    http://www.lewissilkin.com/en/Knowle...%20Basics.ashx

    ....and of course..... why it is LPA 1925 s.52, LP(MP)Act s.1 (3) as amended by the 2005 Order has not been complied with to cause the many Deeds posted herein and elsewhere on the threads to lack compliance with statute....

    Apple


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Thank you apple your help on here has I fully believe kept some people in there homes, the lenders have to my knowledge lied and made statements which they know to be un true and the courts are un able or un willing to question because of what would happen.
    Just look at what has happened in the PPIicon Lbioer rates charges etc etc and they still believe every thing these people say.
    I think the only way to get any justice is to take a case to the European Courts.


  11. #11
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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Hi Is It Me

    Is it just the Lenders that have 'lied'.... or is it the professional negligence of conveyancing solicitors.... remember a lot of these sub-prime mortgages were only available via brokers....who themselves were paid over and above the normal fee to promote the sub-prime lenders mortgageicon products....it begs the question, why were solicitors, who were entrusted by Borrowers to handle the conveyance in their interest failing to ensure that duly executed deeds were submitted to HMLR....and then.....why have HMLR registered deeds that evince no due execution (delivery) despite the 2005 Order amending the 1989 Act (from 'delivery by him' to 'it must be delivered'); without questioning any deed since the 2005 Order came into force? HMLR were party to the discussion process that preceded the coming into force of that Order....so, it would be difficult to presume that they were and are not aware of it.....(alarmingly it has been found that HMLR will insist they have made no mistake in registering the interest even on mortgages that were entered into after sept 2005).....we are at a stage where these sub-prime lenders have 'withdrawn' from the market....but prime high street lenders are possibly continuing where sub-prime lenders left off....the need for HMLR vigilance should be paramount (but, it isn't)...having said that....HMLR have no interest in the underlying validity of the deed....the issue is.....Courts appear wrongly to assume that they do....(alarmingly....it has been found that you can put a deed with only the Borrowers signature on under the nose of a Judge and he will ..... refer to HMLR's official title register... as though the execution of a deed means no more than the finding in 'Eagle Star'..a finding that sets no precedent and does not state or express that it intends to do so either, by the way....and yet prefer to rely on such decisions and the 'conclusive' nature of official copies of a title register...which is as you suggest....a damning issue for every Borrower.....negligence, ignorance, lack of keeping abreast with changes in the Law appears rife from all sides.....it's a terrible state of affairs....

    Like you say, if the information posted enlightens and empowers more Borrowers to make enquiry, to ask more questions or at least get a better understanding of the UK mortgageicon market...then, it's all good...and yes, I'm hopeful that it leads to more Borrowers protecting their Homes : )

    European Court is a last resort for most....some will have treaded as we have seen...the local courts, high court, court of appeal, supreme court routes to justice... .....when they could at any time (even if they have been re-possessed)... cut to the chase and get the Adjudicator to give a decision on the deed...if he decides in your favor....it should resolve the entire issue....he can order HMLR to remove the Lenders charge or order that it was at all times invalid ab initio....... it costs nothing, a Borrower does not have to approach HMLR first - applications seeking validity of the deed is different to disputes that relate to boundary disputes etc..that HMLR refer to the Adjudicator........google 'HMLR Adjudicator' for confirmation of how to go about going via the Adjudicator....(keep in mind the Adjudicators decision in 'garguillo')

    Apple


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    Basic Account Holder IS IT ME? Novitiate



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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    are you still unable to have PM as I am looking to send of a deed to the adjudicator


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Hi Is It Me..

    The issue remains as previous I'm afraid...... sorry : (

    Apple


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    any ideas on what to state?
    I've put that it is under LR23 etc so any thoughts?


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Quote Originally Posted by IS IT ME? View Post
    any ideas on what to state?
    I've put that it is under LR23 etc so any thoughts?
    Hi Is It Me,

    LR23?? can you advise as to which piece of legislation you are referring to here please mate? (I hope you will agree that Land Law is complex enough without abbreviating legislation where ever it can be avoided).

    Further, please accept that it is difficult to assist without more detail....(and, of course when one is talking the 'nitty gritty' - it would be priviledged info - not available to any touts that may want to get a look in - if you get my drift).

    There is already a wealth of detail on the various forums that I have posted on. I don't think you would be giving too much away by confirming which piece of legislation you are referring to, or a general outline of what it is you are thinking of saying, I could possibly work with you from there...???

    Apple


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Quote Originally Posted by IS IT ME? View Post
    are you still unable to have PM as I am looking to send of a deed to the adjudicator
    There is the 'Adjudicator to Her Majesty's Land Registry (Practice and Procedure) Rules 2003 which should help you understand the role of the Adjudicator - look at 'Part 3' - Recitification Application to the Adjudicator to Rectify or Set Aside Documents: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

    There is the amended Order of 2008 to the above practices and procedures to consider also e.g: -

    "Amendments to the Adjudicator to Her Majesty’s Land Registry (Practice and Procedure) Rules 2003

    11. In rule 16(1) (form and contents of a rectification application)—
    (a)in sub-paragraph (b) for “signed by the applicant or the applicant’s duly authorised representative” substitute “verified by a statement of truth,”;
    (b)omit sub-paragraph (d)(iv); and
    (c)for sub-paragraph (e)(i) substitute—
    (i)copies of any documents in the applicant’s possession or control which—
    (aa)are central to the applicant’s case; or
    (bb)the adjudicator or any other party to the proceedings will require in order properly to understand the rectification application; and.
    Best to familiarise yourself with as many of the amendments here: http://www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals/...nd-legislation

    Hope this helps for now?

    Apple


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    Basic Account Holder IS IT ME? Novitiate



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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    yes sorry, to question the validly of the deed at the adjudicators office.
    I think its the Sec 1 (3) Law of Property (miscellaneous provisions Act), I my be wrong which I usually am


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Quote Originally Posted by IS IT ME? View Post
    yes sorry, to question the validly of the deed at the adjudicators office.
    I think its the Sec 1 (3) Law of Property (miscellaneous provisions Act), I my be wrong which I usually am
    In the first instance, any application to the Adjudicator will be pursuant to Part 3 as amended of the 'Adjudicator to Her Majesty's Land Registry (Practice and Procedure) Rules 2003'

    BUT....before you make any application to the Adjudicator.........Is the Deed you speak of signed after September 2005?

    Apple


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    yes well after


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    Default Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

    Hi Is it Me

    The response is more detailed than you may expect...give me a while, I will come back to you asap : )

    Apple


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