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    • love the extra £1000 charge for confidentialy there BF   Also OP even if they don't offer OOC it doesn't mean your claim isn't good. I had 3 against EVRi that were heard over the last 3 weeks. They sent me emails asking me to discontinue as I wouldn't win. Went infront of a judge and won all 3.    Just remember the law is on your side. The judges will be aware of this.   Where you can its important to try to point out at the hearing the specific part of the contract they breached. I found this was very helpful and the Judge made reference to it when they gave their judgements and it seemed this was pretty important as once you have identified a specific breach the matter turns straight to liability. From there its a case of pointing out the unlawfullness of their insurance and then that should be it.
    • I know dx and thanks again for yours and others help. I was 99.999% certain last payment was over six years ago if not longer.  👍
    • Paragraph 23 – "standard industry practice" – put this in bold type. They are stupid to rely on this and we might as well carry on emphasising how stupid they are. I wonder why they could even have begun to think some kind of compelling argument – "the other boys do it so I do it as well…" Same with paragraph 26   Paragraph 45 – The Defendants have so far been unable to produce any judgements at any level which disagree with the three judgements…  …court, but I would respectfully request…   Just the few amendments above – and I think it's fine. I think you should stick to the format that you are using. This has been used lots of times and has even been applauded by judges for being meticulous and clear. You aren't a professional. Nobody is expecting professional standards and although it's important that you understand exactly what you are doing – you don't really want to come over to the judge that you have done this kind of thing before. As a litigant in person you get a certain licence/leeway from judges and that is helpful to you – especially if you are facing a professional advocate. The way this is laid out is far clearer than the mess that you will get from EVRi. Quite frankly they undermine their own credibility by trying to say that they should win simply because it is "standard industry practice". It wouldn't at all surprise me if EVRi make you a last moment offer of the entire value of your claim partly to avoid judgement and also partly to avoid the embarrassment of having this kind of rubbish exposed in court. If they do happen to do that, then you should make sure that they pay everything. If they suddenly make you an out-of-court offer and this means that they are worried that they are going to lose and so you must make sure that you get every penny – interest, costs – everything you claimed. Finally, if they do make you an out-of-court offer they will try to sign you up to a confidentiality agreement. The answer to that is absolutely – No. It's not part of the claim and if they want to settle then they settle the claim as it stands and don't try add anything on. If they want confidentiality then that will cost an extra £1000. If they don't like it then they can go do the other thing. Once you have made the amendments suggested above – it should be the final version. court,. I don't think we are going to make any more changes. Your next job good to make sure that you are completely familiar with it all. That you understand the arguments. Have you made a court familiarisation visit?
    • just type no need to keep hitting quote... as has already been said, they use their own criteria. if a person is not stated as linked to you on your file then no cant hurt you. not all creditors use every CRA provider, there are only 3 main credit file providers mind, the rest are just 3rd party data sharers. if you already have revolving credit on your file there is no need to apply for anything just 'because' you need to show you can handle money. if you have bank account(s) and a mortgage which you are servicing (paying) then nothing more can improve your score, despite what these 'scam' sites claiml  its all a CON!!  
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Incapacity Benefit & Occupational Pension


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Hello,

 

I've just received form BF85A (changes which may affect your benefit for IB & SDA) asking me to detail what other benefits I'm on and any changes they need to know about. It also specifically asks about Pension Income.

 

I've never been asked about my occupational benefit before - i started receiving IB before 6th April 2001, so remained exempt from having it taken into account. Checking the accompanying booklet, it specifies that the pension income rules do not apply to me because of this.

 

My question is, should i put that i receive the pension on the form (with or without details) or as i'm exempt from taking it into account do i just leave it blank?

 

Relatedly, I have tried on several occasions from different sources to try to find out what will happen regarding my occupational pension when my migration happens. I'm not clear whether the exemption loses its validity once i'm on ESA.

 

I really appreciate any advice/views about the above.

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I was in a similar position to you re old claim for IB. In my case my partner claimed WTC, although my IB did not count as income, I still had to inform HMRC, when I was migrated to ESA my partner lost WTC (or would have done had they not retired).

 

If it specifically asks you about pension income you should report it. It may not make any difference but you must still tell them. If you are still unsure you should phone up and ask.

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if your occupational pension is more than £70 per week this will affect your entitlement to ib, they will remove pound for pound from your ib, i have to send them details every year of my pension luckily or not I am under this allowance so it doesnt apply but they still insist on seeing evidence year on year

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2.5.1 Entitlement to Incapacity Benefit prior to 6 April 2001

 

Where a person has been continuously entitled to Incapacity Benefit since prior to 6 April 2001, pension payments will not affect Incapacity Benefit entitlement. If the claim is broken but the person later re-qualifies for Incapacity Benefit, pension payments can still be ignored if the periods of incapacity can be linked.

 

I dont think your pension will be taken into account against your ESA, if you go accross to ESA and are accepted you should receive the same benefit because you have transitional protection to April 2020 if you remain on ESA....

 

Also just found this for ESA conts people who claim is to close after 365 days :)

 

Having looked into this and received correspondence from the ESA Policy Team (via my MP) it would appear that at the end of one's one year on CB ESA (if placed in the WRAG) provided there is a gap of 12 weeks then one can submit another claim for CB ESA.

Edited by MIKEY DABODEE
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thanks for your replies. Mike your comment re transitional protection and ESA is particularly reassuring, as I would probably lose all esa if they started taking my nhs pension into account. Though as I've just heard I won't now qualify for state pension til i'm 66, I will lose out at the end (I realise that is based on the assumption that I would go into the ESA support group - though there is little realistic chance of me improving sufficiently to return to work (if there was I wouldn't have got an ill-health retirement pension at the age of 44!) I appreciate that doesn't mean ATOS will agree........)

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yes if you are put in the WRAG then you will be subject to the 12 month rules....

but you should hopefully not go in there

 

here are the rules for pensions

 

Pensions prior to conversion

45465 Certain pension payments or PPF periodic payments, described at DMG 44716 et seq, do not fall to be deducted from ESA(Cont). In addition any pension payment or PPF periodic payment is disregarded1 where

 

1. the claimant was entitled to IB immediately before conversion to ESA and

2. IB was not reduced by a pension or PPF payment2 because

2.1 the claimant was entitled to DLA care component at the highest rate3 or

2.2 the claimant qualified for IB under the provisions for those incapacitated in youth because of previous entitlement to SDA4 or

2.3 the claimant was entitled to IB before 6.4.01 on any day of IfW in a PIW

which began before and continues after that date5

 

iro of your case but this may change

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is this why my pension is taken into account as my claim for IB was from 2007..even though I only get £140.00 per month they still insist on seeing the evidence year on year even though it is never going to make the 70 quid a week to affect my IB will this happen on my changeover to ESA. if placed in WRAG after a year?

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from the dot gov site

If you receive contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance and have a gross pension income of more than £85 a week, the amount of benefit payable will be reduced by half of the excess.

The excess is the difference between £85 and the actual pension income. For example, for a pension income of £100, the excess is £15. The amount of Employment and Support Allowance payable is reduced by half of that, which is £7.50.

If you receive income-related Employment and Support Allowance, any pension income you have will be taken into account, regardless of the amount.

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I know its a pain, on IS you have to supply proof of pension every April even if there is no change...

 

the rules quoted for Pensions over £85 are for new claimants to ESA

and not for the OP :)

 

and yes you are different because you made your claim in 2007 and if you are put in the WRAG group after 12 months the above rule would apply

Edited by MIKEY DABODEE
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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi I found this through Googling, as I am having trouble finding details about being transferred from IB to ESA. I have an OCCP and the job centre have deducted part of my pension quoting that any income is not disregarded. I have spoken to several different people and been told the same thing. I have received IB since before 2001.

 

Is there anything I can quote to them? Getting very frustrated and just want to know what is correct.

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they are correct the rules have changed....depending on what income you have coming in...eg if you have a partner etc....my pension is 35.00 pound per week and as my wife still gets IB my entitlement to esa cont...is zilch....we are entitled to the grand sum of 23.00 pound on IS and the same on JSA....however I do seem to remember something about 2001 and IB and occ pensions...however, cant remember where I read it...will see if I can find it for you...otherwise you are going to have to wait until someone from site team comes along

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Between October 2010 and Spring 2014 customers who receive Incapacity Benefit, Severe Disablement Allowance and Income Support paid on the grounds of illness or disability will be assessed for Employment and Support Allowance.

 

We will write to customers when their benefit becomes due for reassessment to tell them about the changes. We will also phone them to answer any questions they may have and find out if they need extra help. They do not need to contact us before they receive this letter.

 

Customers will then be sent a medical questionnaire to complete and return and this will be used to decide if they need to attend a Work Capability Assessment. It is important that customers provide as much detail as possible when completing the questionnaire as this will be used to help decide if the customer is entitled to Employment and Support Allowance (ESA).

The excess is the difference between £85 and the actual pension income. For example, for a pension income of £100, the excess is £15. The amount of Employment and Support Allowance payable is reduced by half of that, which is £7.50.

 

If you receive income-related Employment and Support Allowance, any pension income you have will be taken into account, regardless of the amount.

 

sorry this is all i can find

source :www.dwp.gov.uk/advis...

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Hi I found this through Googling, as I am having trouble finding details about being transferred from IB to ESA. I have an OCCP and the job centre have deducted part of my pension quoting that any income is not disregarded. I have spoken to several different people and been told the same thing. I have received IB since before 2001.

 

Is there anything I can quote to them? Getting very frustrated and just want to know what is correct.

 

If you claimed before April 2001 then your pension will be disregarded on ESA.

You should receive the same ESA as your current rate of IB, if you pass the medical of course

Pensions prior to conversion

45465 Certain pension payments or PPF periodic payments, described at DMG 44716 et seq, do not fall to be deducted from ESA(Cont). In addition any pension payment or PPF periodic payment is disregarded1 where

 

1. the claimant was entitled to IB immediately before conversion to ESA and

2. IB was not reduced by a pension or PPF payment2 because

2.1 the claimant was entitled to DLA care component at the highest rate3 or

2.2 the claimant qualified for IB under the provisions for those incapacitated in youth because of previous entitlement to SDA4 or

2.3 the claimant was entitled to IB before 6.4.01 on any day of IfW in a PIW

which began before and continues after that date5

 

rules with the DMG number so you can quote them if needed.

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Thanks I appreciate your reply. I am so frustrated with speaking to people in the job centre who have absolutely no idea about this. I appreciate they have a lot to learn, but not one has said they will look in to it, just asking me who told me it was disregarded. :|

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  • 1 year later...
If you claimed before April 2001 then your pension will be disregarded on ESA.

You should receive the same ESA as your current rate of IB, if you pass the medical of course

Pensions prior to conversion

45465 Certain pension payments or PPF periodic payments, described at DMG 44716 et seq, do not fall to be deducted from ESA(Cont). In addition any pension payment or PPF periodic payment is disregarded1 where

 

1. the claimant was entitled to IB immediately before conversion to ESA and

2. IB was not reduced by a pension or PPF payment2 because

2.1 the claimant was entitled to DLA care component at the highest rate3 or

2.2 the claimant qualified for IB under the provisions for those incapacitated in youth because of previous entitlement to SDA4 or

2.3 the claimant was entitled to IB before 6.4.01 on any day of IfW in a PIW

which began before and continues after that date5

 

rules with the DMG number so you can quote them if needed.

 

Hi Mikey.Can you repost that number and site when you got that information.Thanks.

I was on IB since Sept 2001 and DLA from Aug 2004.High care rate.Low mobility rate plus I was pensioned off from work.And because of the high rate of care DLA I was told that pension is ignored by both IB and DLA.Pension and IB were taxable. From 2005 I was told not to call to inform of pension as it was ignored by DLA and IB due to high care conponent .

 

Now have been told that IB is ESA support group and contribution based. Next thing they write and say.....your pension is due to go up soon and please tell us what it is and the rate they quoted me is the time they told me not to call in about it anymore which was 2005 !

 

So thats one problem.They seem to half half the information but not the bit where they told me not to call with updates!

Then I ring them up asking about the DLA and its effect on ESA and pensions.Some say yes that rule applies and some have never heard of it .Its scary because they said that i don't need to give updates from 2005 as DLA ignores it for IB yet ESA are going on dated information from IB but saying were are ESA and all new.

Somebody please help .

 

I checked Child Poverty site

Lawcentres

Welfarerights

Disability rights etc and they all say the same:

 

That if you are on the high rate of DLA and IB then your op is ignored.And if you move onto ESA contribution based then you are still protected.

 

But if you speak to them.....they have no clue so how do you convince them that it still applies and also that I submitted op while they asked and before being on DLA high care rate and then they told me not to send sick notes or pension updates as it did not apply !

 

I am sick with worry and I need desperate help.

Thank you

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This is from Focus on disability:-In relation to IB and ESA.

 

 

If you have a personal pension

 

For new claims, half of your occupational or personal pension(s) above £85 is to be deducted from your incapacity benefit. For example, if you have a weekly occupational pension of £95 then your incapacity benefit will be reduced by £5 a week. It is intended that permanent health insurance payments arranged through your employer will also be taken into account after your employment has ended.

The government has said you will be exempt if:

You already get incapacity benefit at the time the rules change - see below;

Your claim links back to an earlier incapacity benefit award that ended before the rules changed (contact the Benefits Agency to learn about the special linking rules for work and training;

You get disability living allowance higher rate care component;

The pension payments are in connection with the death of a member of the scheme.

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From the child action poverty group:-

 

Those on IB and SDA who claimed before 6 April 2001 or are entitled to the highest rate care component of disability living allowance will continue to have any occupational pension fully disregarded on transfer to contributory ESA, unlike other ESA claimants who have 50 per cent of any occupational pension over £85 a week deducted from their entitlement.

 

 

So saying the same thing as Mikey but if you call them then its they have no clue.

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:sunshine:

 

My understanding of the complex bit of incapacity benefit to employment n support allowance that you've described :frusty:; is that transitional protection exempts a conversion award from deductions for pension income if the claimant's in receipt of the highest care component of disability living allowance.

 

The section of the decision makers guide that you've quoted in #18 comes from;

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dmgch45.pdf

 

section 45465

 

The decision makers guide to incapacity benefit;

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dmgch56.pdf

 

sections 56135 and (56155 - of interest but not relevant to you)

 

From the key facts in;

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/ib-reassessment-information-pack.pdf

 

'where people who are eligible for ESA receive more on existing incapacity benefits than the appropriate ESA rate, their existing rate of benefit will be protected at the point of conversion'

 

How to convince Jobcentreplus:?::?: Through no fault of their own some of the call centre staff don't have enough experience or training to understand 'legacy' benefits. And even if they did, the info on their screens is very limited. I'd suggest a fully referenced formal letter (via recorded delivery) to your benefit delivery centre. And a gentle nudge every two weeks or so for a reply.

 

Good luck, Margaret.

Edited by **Margaret**
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:sunshine:

 

My understanding of the complex bit of incapacity benefit to employment n support allowance that you've described ; is that transitional protection exempts a conversion award from deductions for pension income if the claimant's in receipt of the highest care component of disability living allowance.

 

The section of the decision makers guide that you've quoted in #18 comes from;

 

 

 

section 45465

 

The decision makers guide to incapacity benefit;

 

 

 

sections 56135 and (56155 - of interest but not relevant to you)

 

From the key facts in;

 

 

 

'where people who are eligible for ESA receive more on existing incapacity benefits than the appropriate ESA rate, their existing rate of benefit will be protected at the point of conversion'

 

How to convince Jobcentreplus.Through no fault of their own some of the call centre staff don't have enough experience or training to understand 'legacy' benefits. And even if they did, the info on their screens is very limited. I'd suggest a fully referenced formal letter (via recorded delivery) to your benefit delivery centre. And a gentle nudge every two weeks or so for a reply.

 

Good luck, Margaret.

 

Thank you Margaret.

Thanks for responding so quickly.really appreciated.

 

I looked through all of this but I can't find anything about IB and DLA high care conponent and how it ignores the pension yet I have found on various welfare rights pages .I need to find it their official documents so if anybody can help me I would be grateful.

I have found it on welfare rights sites where it says that which pertains fully what I am seeking and have been told by these same bods in the past:

 

 

Pension income rules

 

If you have a gross pension income of more than £85 a week, the amount of benefit will be reduced by half of the excess.

The excess is the difference between £85 and the actual pension income. For example, for a pension income of £100, the excess is £15. The amount of Incapacity Benefit payable is reduced by half of that, which is £7.50.

Exceptions

 

This rule does not apply if:

 

  • you were in receipt of Incapacity Benefit before 6 April 2001
  • your claim is made under the linking rules for Incapacity Benefit and links back to before 6 April 2001
  • you receive the highest rate of the care component of Disability Living Allowance

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This is from the focusondisabilty site and tells it exactly how we were told.That pension is ignored if on DLA which I have highlited.I need to find this on the WOrks and Pensions site if possible.Can someone please help.Thanks.

 

If you have a personal pension

 

For new claims, half of your occupational or personal pension(s) above £85 is to be deducted from your incapacity benefit. For example, if you have a weekly occupational pension of £95 then your incapacity benefit will be reduced by £5 a week. It is intended that permanent health insurance payments arranged through your employer will also be taken into account after your employment has ended.

The government has said you will be exempt if:

You already get incapacity benefit at the time the rules change - see below;

Your claim links back to an earlier incapacity benefit award that ended before the rules changed (contact the Benefits Agency to learn about the special linking rules for work and training;

You get disability living allowance higher rate care component;

The pension payments are in connection with the death of a member of the scheme.

It is expected that the rules will treat you as having an income from an occupational pension that would be available to you if you applied for it. So you can avoid the reduction by deferring part of your pension. But this won’t apply to personal pensions unless you are aged 60 or over

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:sunshine:

 

Apart from the original parliamentary legislation the first two links in #21, to the Decision Makers Guide, are the official Work n Pensions documents. They're links from the Work n Pensions site at;

 

http://dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides

 

From section 56135 of chapter 56;

 

'No deduction from IB should be made if the claimant is entitled to DLA care component at the highest rate.'

 

In my opinion, it's a waste of time trying to resolve this via phone. Way, way too complicated. If a formal letter doesn't work, my two penneth is that you try to get advice from a law centre or welfare rights.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

Edited by **Margaret**
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:sunshine:

 

Apart from the original parliamentary legislation the first two links in #21, to the Decision Makers Guide, are the official Work n Pensions documents. They're links from the Work n Pensions site at;

 

 

From section 56135 of chapter 56;

 

'No deduction from IB should be made if the claimant is entitled to DLA care component at the highest rate.'

 

In my opinion, it's a waste of time trying to resolve this via phone. Way, way too complicated. If a formal letter doesn't work, my two penneth is that you try to get advice from a law centre or welfare rights.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

 

 

 

Thank you so much Margaret .God bless you.

I think I will need a week to compose this letter !

Getting hold of a welfare officer is difficult.You would not believe .

 

One last favour please Margaret.

What is the date of this publication you have quoted me please ? Thank you .xo

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