Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #41
    Basic Account Holder billybobyeeharrboy Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by ms_smith View Post
    You wrote here:


    I raised a grievance and it was clearly never going to get heard so I resigned saying that I had enjoyed my time working there etc.

    Is this what you literally put in your resignation letter? If so, seems like we know now why you lost your tribunal.

    However, if you wrote and explained in your witness statement before ET why you had put this information in your resignation letter (because you feared any consequences as to the references), then the tribunal is very likely to understand you.
    Ms Smith, if only it were this simply, I did exactly as above and look at the result.

    when I said I was resigning the line manager who had been bullying me invited me to go for a coffee to "talk about it"

    what line manager wanted to do was to glean info. in case of an et claim and this has actually been submitted as evidence in the respondents bundle.

    Unbelievable what companies can get away with.....



  2. #42
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Did you go for this coffee!?

    Constructive dismissalicon means you resign and there are no coffees, teas of cookies after. It is end of story, end of chapter, "see you later in court" only.


  3. #43
    Basic Account Holder Browncow Novitiate Browncow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by ms_smith View Post
    I will say it is worth going to tribunal on your own if you're ready to dig into law and spend some time making yourself familiar with procedures. After all, who will understand you better than you yourself?

    Why do you think your case is a lost one already, browncow?
    Y All the evidence is there and it will be efficiently presented but there are so few remedies in law and the awards are so stingy that it is really a lot of hard work stress and expense for nothing. I am sure that the Tribunal will bend over backwards to exonerate the employer as they did in Billybob's case.

    Why should I personally have to pay thousands to illustrate that workers are harassed, policies are flouted or ignored , poor practice is justified and internal grievanceicon processes are a tool of victimization when it is already well known and nobody cares?

    As for the so called unions - they bear little resemblance to the original organizations that fought for social justice and equal rights -


    Get an accident and injury policy and some legal insurance folks and take them to the county courticon if your health or wellbeing is damaged by your working environment.

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  4. #44
    Basic Account Holder billybobyeeharrboy Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Hi Browncow,

    thanks for your post. There's always the employment appeals tribunal.

    My legal advisor has said that costs are not awarded at the EAT. Please can this be confirmed by someone here seriously urgently. I thought that this was not the case and the looser (ie potentially me) could be liable for other sides costs, if the case goes to appeal and looses. could I be potentially lumbered with a bill for 10's of thousands of pounds in my search for justice (the elusive holy grail it seems! )

    Can anyone confirm this is the case

    With the county courticon is there a time limit on this? whats the procedure if the incident was more than a year ago???

    Thanks v much


  5. #45
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by Browncow View Post
    I am sure that the Tribunal will bend over backwards to exonerate the employer as they did in Billybob's case.
    I am trying to understand where part of billy's reasoning come from.
    I am not saying he shouldn't feel aggrieved or upset because every normal, decent person woud be in his situation and what he went through.
    The problem is we only get chunks of info here yet if billy is happy to provide us with more details surrounding his resignation, we will have a chance too see bigger picture.


  6. #46
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by billybobyeeharrboy View Post

    My legal advisor has said that costs are not awarded at the EAT. Please can this be confirmed by someone here seriously urgently. I thought that this was not the case and the looser (ie potentially me) could be liable for other sides costs, if the case goes to appeal and looses. could I be potentially lumbered with a bill for 10's of thousands of pounds in my search for justice (the elusive holy grail it seems! )

    Can anyone confirm this is the case

    With the county courticon is there a time limit on this? whats the procedure if the incident was more than a year ago???
    ased on thi
    Thanks v much
    EAT can still award costs, I am afraid - whether on application for costs from the other side for bringing highly unreasonable or vexatious (in their belief) claim or if a party behaves very much disruptively during proceedings.
    EAT especially puts special attention to what was put before et panel at the hearing. Based on material put before the panel then, you need to refer to why they erred on a point of law (in front of EAT).
    How many days do you have left to submit application for a review? (14 days run out of when?)

    As for county court you have 6 yearsicon to bring a claim.
    In your case, you should to much extent refer to Protection from Harassment Act 1997.


  7. #47
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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Youll find that all courts and tribunals have the ability to bring costs against either party, win or lose, depending on the circumstances.

    As I think I mentioned earlier Im familiar with Leasehold/Land Tribunals and the ability to bring costs is limited to 500 (however I believe there is no such limit at EAT ?), BUT to warrant this there must be significant unreasonable or vexatious behaviour and this is rarely given, however the other side may apply for it and claim things such as weak claim, eveidence/directions not complied with on time, etc.

    I was just reading a LANDS tribunal ruling on this, the original LVT allowed costs of 500 as landlord was late in supplying documents but on appeal this was disallowed, so no both sides had to cover their own costs.

    Are EAT decisions made public, printed online ?

    Andy


  8. #48
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by andydd View Post
    Youll find that all courts and tribunals have the ability to bring costs against either party, win or lose, depending on the circumstances.

    As I think I mentioned earlier Im familiar with Leasehold/Land Tribunals and the ability to bring costs is limited to 500 (however I believe there is no such limit at EAT ?), BUT to warrant this there must be significant unreasonable or vexatious behaviour and this is rarely given, however the other side may apply for it and claim things such as weak claim, eveidence/directions not complied with on time, etc.

    I was just reading a LANDS tribunal ruling on this, the original LVT allowed costs of 500 as landlord was late in supplying documents but on appeal this was disallowed, so no both sides had to cover their own costs.

    Are EAT decisions made public, printed online ?

    Andy
    Andy, you keep banging on residential matters.
    Employment tribunals have got their own practice directions, in small proportion common with general code of conduct of parties elsewhere.

    You can find some of the EAT judgments here:
    http://www.employmentappeals.gov.uk/...Judgments.aspx


  9. #49
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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Yes, costs can be awarded in the EAT, in circumstances where a review could have done the job of an appeal, where the proceedings were unnecessary/misconceived/vexatious, where you miss deadlines, or amend a pleading, or cause proceedings to be delayed in any significant way. The scope is slightly different to the ET. I also don't believe that EAT costs are subject to the 20,000 cap that they are in the Employment Tribunal either, as its open to the Judge to award costs on either a standad or indemnity basis (or the parties can agree to fix costs between themselves).

    You should note that you can't seek to bring a claim in another forum (i.e. the county courticon) which has already been decided by a previous court or tribunal. So there's a good chance you couldn't bring a claim based on primarily the same facts.


  10. #50
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    Default Re: Need to make a review of employment tribunal judgement

    Just to copy and paste from the ET Rules of Procedure, reviews are permitted on the following grounds:

    (a)the decision was wrongly made as a result of an administrative error;
    (b)a party did not receive notice of the proceedings leading to the decision;
    (c)the decision was made in the absence of a party;
    (d)new evidence has become available since the conclusion of the hearing to which the decision relates, provided that its existence could not have been reasonably known of or foreseen at that time; or
    (e)the interests of justice require such a review.


  11. #51
    Basic Account Holder Browncow Novitiate Browncow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by ms_smith View Post
    I am trying to understand where part of billy's reasoning come from.
    I am not saying he shouldn't feel aggrieved or upset because every normal, decent person woud be in his situation and what he went through.
    The problem is we only get chunks of info here yet if billy is happy to provide us with more details surrounding his resignation, we will have a chance too see bigger picture.
    I have seen that "bigger picture" many times on these boards and it is a very ugly big picture. I think that the ET has become irrelevant as it was unable to remain even handed. I think that a lot of Tribunal staff will be sackedicon in the forseeable as claims dwindle. Will they bother to fill in an ET1 do you think?


  12. #52
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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by Browncow View Post
    I have seen that "bigger picture" many times on these boards and it is a very ugly big picture. I think that the ET has become irrelevant as it was unable to remain even handed. I think that a lot of Tribunal staff will be sackedicon in the forseeable as claims dwindle. Will they bother to fill in an ET1 do you think?
    I hope so, or I'll be out of a job...

    The legal world is predicting that there will be an increase to the complexity of litigation, because with the two year length of service requirement, people will be sneaking in claims through the back door on the back of discrimination/whistleblowing/health and safety breaches. That will mean protracted litigation and usually a PHR to dispose of any misconceived claims - so I don't think its likely that the ET staff will be out of a job.

    Lawyers, on the other hand!...


  13. #53
    Basic Account Holder Browncow Novitiate Browncow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by billybobyeeharrboy View Post
    Hi Browncow,

    thanks for your post. There's always the employment appeals tribunal.

    No fanx mate. I have had a gutful and it has cost me 9000


  14. #54
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by becky2585 View Post

    You should note that you can't seek to bring a claim in another forum (i.e. the county courticon) which has already been decided by a previous court or tribunal. So there's a good chance you couldn't bring a claim based on primarily the same facts.

    ???????
    As long as any appeal process is active and one has got strong grounds for appeal (i.e. there was a serious flaw during the process of that particular court), one is encouraged to start claims in different courts.

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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    In most cases where there are concurrent proceedings between the same parties in both the court and the employment tribunal, the employment tribunal proceedings will be stayed pending the outcome of the court proceedings. There is a recent case in which the EAT stated that concurrent proceedings should be avoided and it would usually be preferable to stay the tribunal proceedings pending the outcome of the court proceedings. However, a decision here has been made.

    Therefore, estoppelicon is relevant here as it prevents claimants from bringing the same claim twice. The only point to consider is whether there are separate issues to be determined - and this is clouded by the fact that an appeal presumably would not be stopped pending a county courticon outcome, which would be the usual thing to do.


  16. #56
    Basic Account Holder Browncow Novitiate Browncow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by professional1964 View Post
    Isn't it depressing to know that people can get away with all those lies!! Money talks definitely. Browncow when are you going to ET or are you in the middle of a hearing? Is there anything I can do to help you?
    Thanks for the offer. it is kind of you but I just have to face the reality.

    I am set to go next week and can only hope for a moral victory.

    It has cost me a lot of money and it really was just a total waste of time as nothing will change.

    While I could continue working if I wanted to I really just want to get away from the low lives.


  17. #57
    Basic Account Holder Browncow Novitiate Browncow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by ms_smith View Post
    ???????
    As long as any appeal process is active and one has got strong grounds for appeal (i.e. there was a serious flaw during the process of that particular court), one is encouraged to start claims in different courts.
    I think the big legal firms ( ususally acting for large companies or public bodies) have wrecked it for all practitioners because they deliberately targetted Claimants personally and would take any load of s**t to a full hearing just to get more money. The legal and moral arguments became secondary to monetary interests and tactics so the ET became cut off from the mainstream.

    Employment Law only exists inside the Tribunal rooms. Employers know that they can do what they like and, unless they are really unlicky, get away with it..


  18. #58
    Basic Account Holder ms_smith Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Dear Browncow, let me remind you that Employment Tribunals are designed to seek one's justice. Justice will vary in every case and claimant's feelings but that's different kettle of fish.

    You have to prove you need justice first, not the money. The amount of any amoney you will claim may be huge but if it doesn't meet with justice you would have to express in the first place, you come across as misconceived.


  19. #59
    Basic Account Holder professional1964 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by Browncow View Post
    Y All the evidence is there and it will be efficiently presented but there are so few remedies in law and the awards are so stingy that it is really a lot of hard work stress and expense for nothing. I am sure that the Tribunal will bend over backwards to exonerate the employer as they did in Billybob's case.

    Why should I personally have to pay thousands to illustrate that workers are harassed, policies are flouted or ignored , poor practice is justified and internal grievanceicon processes are a tool of victimization when it is already well known and nobody cares?

    As for the so called unions - they bear little resemblance to the original organizations that fought for social justice and equal rights -


    Get an accident and injury policy and some legal insurance folks and take them to the county courticon if your health or wellbeing is damaged by your working environment.

    Browncow I am with you on this one! Every single point you make is so relevant especially the grievance process being a tool for victimisation! I have had another day of enormous stress and anguish all because of my ex-employers. I am growing old and going grey with worry whilst they sit with their huge bank accounts knowing that they will most probably win. I went to watch an Employment Tribunal for a young man on his own. I sat for a couple of days and listened intently to the whole case (it was harassment and constructive dismissal). During the breaks I spoke to the young man and gave him support as he was on his own. The respondent's witnesses were obviously lying. Their stories did not correspond with each other's and whilst one was giving his statement and asking questions the other was sitting look agitated as this particular witness was giving a different version of events to the one he had given. Anyhow I sat their thinking the Tribunal would definitely find in the young man's favour. It was obvious to me that this young man had suffered and was alone with no representation and the respondent was lying! But not to the Employment Tribunal he lost the case! I was so shocked I actually felt like crying because of the injustice. However he simply walked over to them and shook their hand (which I would not have done). As we walked out of the room I told him how sorry I was and how brave he had been and honourable to shake their hands. He said I am the better person and I know I didn't lie. I can now put all of this behind me and get on with my life!

    I really do think there should be a government support unit/advisory group for people going through the Employment Tribunal process so that at least they have a fair chance at winning their case.


  20. #60
    Basic Account Holder Browncow Novitiate Browncow's Avatar

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    Default Re: Employment tribunal case LOST!!!:(((

    Quote Originally Posted by ms_smith View Post
    Dear Browncow, let me remind you that Employment Tribunals are designed to seek one's justice. Justice will vary in every case and claimant's feelings but that's different kettle of fish.

    You have to prove you need justice first, not the money. The amount of any amoney you will claim may be huge but if it doesn't meet with justice you would have to express in the first place, you come across as misconceived.
    And what precisely is "one's justice"? I thought it was just justice and if equally applied should not vary all that much if decisions are being made fairly based on the same criteria.

    There is no money in my claim. I would break even, if I won.

    I resent your calling me "misconceived" . That is not an adjective to apply to a peson anyway and you have no right to disparage me.



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