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    • These are the photos of the signs. At the entrance there is a 7h free sign. On some bays there is a permit sign.  Also their official website is misleading as it implies all parking is free.  I can't be certain of the exact parking bay I was in that day, and there was no PCN ticket on my car and no other evidence was provided.  parking sign 2.pdf
    • Hi, In my last post I mentioned I had received an email from SS who were asking me to hand over the keys to my mother’s flat so they could pass them to the Law firm who have been appointed court of protection to access, secure and insure my mother’s property.  Feeling this, all quickly getting out of my hands I emailed ss requesting proof of this. I HAVEN’T HEARD BACK FROM SS.  Yesterday, I received an email (with attached court of protection order) from the Law Firm confirming this was correct (please see below a copy of this).  After reading the court of protection order I do have some concerns about it:   (a)   I only found out yesterday, the Law firm had been appointed by the court back in January.  Up until now, I have not received any notification regarding this.  (b)   Section 2   - States I am estranged from my mother.  This is NOT CORRECT    The only reason I stepped back from my mother was to protect myself from the guy (groomer) who had befriended her & was very aggressive towards me & because of my mother’s dementia she had become aggressive also.  I constantly tried to warned SS about this guy's manipulative behaviour towards my mother and his increasing aggressiveness towards me (as mentioned in previous posts).  Each time I was ignored.  Instead, SS encouraged his involvement with my mother – including him in her care plans and mental health assessments.   I was literally pushed out because I feared him and my mother’s increasing aggression towards me. Up until I stepped back, I had always looked after my mother and since her admission to the care home, I visit regularly.   .(c)    Sections -  4, 5 and 7  I am struggling to understand these as I don’t have a legal background.  I was wondering if there is anyone who might be able to explain what they mean.  It’s been a horrendous situation where I had to walk away from my mother at her most vulnerable because of; ss (not helping), scammer and groomer. I have no legal background, nor experience in highly manipulative people or an understanding of how the SS system operates, finding myself isolated, scared and powerless to the point I haven’t collected my personal belongings and items for my mother’s room in the care home.  Sadly, the court has only had heard one version of this story SS’s, and based their decision on that. My mother’s situation and the experience I have gone through could happen to anyone who has a vulnerable parent.    If anyone any thoughts on this much appreciated.  Thank you. ______________________________________________________  (Below is the Court of Protection Order)  COURT OF PROTECTION                                                                                                                                                                                   No xxx  MENTAL CAPACITY ACT 2005 In the matter of Name xxx ORDER Made by  Depty District Judge At xxx Made on xxx Issued on 18 January 2024  WHEREAS  1.     xxx Solicitors, Address xxx  ("Applicant”) has applied for an order under the Mental Capacity Act 2005.  2.     The Court notes (my mother) is said to be estranged from all her three children and only one, (me) has been notified.  3.     (Me) was previously appointed as Atorney for Property and Affairs for (my mother).  The Exhibity NAJ at (date) refers to (me) and all replacement Attorneys are now officially standing down.  4.     Pursuant to Rule 9.10 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 and Practice Direction 9B the Applicant 2must seek to identify at least three persons who are likely to have an interest in being notified that an application has been issues.”  The children of (my mother), and any other appointed attorneys are likely to have an interest in the application, because of the nature of relationship to (my mother).  5.     The Court considers that the notification requirements are an important safeguard for the person in respect of whom an order is sought.  6.     The Court notes that it is said that the local authority no longer has access to (my mother’s) Property.  7.     Further information is required for the Court to determine the application.  IT IS ORDERED THAT  Within 28 days of the issue date this order, the Applicant shall file a form COP24 witness statement confirming that the other children of (my mother) and any replacement attorneys have been notified of the application and shall confirm their name, address, and date upon which those persons were notified.  If the Applicant wishes the Court to dispense with any further notification, they should file a COP9 and COP24 explaining, what steps (if any) have been taken to attempt notification and why notification should be dispensed with.   Pending the determination of the application to appoint a deputy for (my mother), the Applicant is authorised to take such steps as are proportionate and necessary to access, secure and insure the house and property of (my mother).   This order was made without a hearing and without notice.  Any person affected by this order may apply within 21 days of the date on which the order was served to have the order set aside or varied pursuant to Rule 13.4 of the Court of Protection Rules 2017 (“the Rules”).  Such application must be made on Form COP9 and in accordance with Part 10 Rules.              
    • Unless I've got an incorrect copy of the relevant regulation: The PCN is only deemed to have arrived two days after dispatch "unless the contrary is proved" in which case date of delivery does matter (not just date of posting) and I would like clarification of the required standard of proof. It seems perhaps this hasn't been tested. Since post is now barcoded for the Post Office's own tracking purposes perhaps there is some way I can get that evidence from the Post Office...
    • I would say You should accept it - I HIGHLY doubt you will  be able to claim for letters at trial ans they’re offering you that, which is higher monetary value than interest.   Also they raise a good point, getting interest at anything above 4% is lucky these days, yes judges give it, but rarily above 4%   Also you might find depending on the judge  you don’t get some costs if you take it all the way over £7.40 when court woukdnt award letters costs and thus meaning their award would be less than evris offer which was made    Up to you though but the wait will be 3-4mo for a trial date at least
    • Hi Folks, Been 162 days! Just by way of update. Today I received a text from Opos Ltd so no doubt Capquest are renting the debt out to anybody who fancies a nibble. Safe to say I will not be responding.
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Council Tax Liability Order Applications


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I have a question or two about council tax liability order applications; in particular with regards how costs are agreed, for example with the Magistrates' court.

 

Background info

 

First off, this is the letter North East Lincolnshire council sent Grimsby Magistrates' court last year when it decided it wanted to increase the revenue generated from council tax liability order applications by changing the composition of the summons/liability order fees.

 

It increased the overall cost by 23% as well as front loading all the charge to the summons fee (effectively a 120% hike).

 

 

Council's letter notifying the court it was increasing costs

Dear Deputy Justices' Clerk

 

 

Court Costs for Council Tax and National Non Domestic Rates

 

I am writing to advise you that North East Lincolnshire Council has taken the decision to increase the court costs which it charges to tax payers for the non payment of Council Tax and National Non Domestic Rates.

 

The costs to be charged for a summons for Council Tax and National Non Domestic Rates will be £70.00. There will be no additional costs for the liability order. The increase will take effect from 1st April 2011.

 

If there is any further information you require then please don’t hesitate to contact me directly on 01472 ****** or via e mail at *****.

 

I would like to take this opportunity to express my thanks for your continued cooperation and support.

 

 

Yours Sincerely

 

Income and Collection Manager

 

Simply notifying the court of its intentions is clearly not something councils should be doing regarding how much (if any) costs are awarded to them.

 

Also, how is it possible for councils to specify on the summons document a predetermined amount for either the summons or liability orders which will be imposed on the taxpayer?

 

Magistrates would need to determine this at the council tax liability order hearing. These costs would vary from one hearing to another because a key factor in determining the costs incurred by the council would be the number processed in the rubber stamping exercise of the bulk hearing.

 

Does anyone have further details about how the level of costs imposed on council taxpayers in respect of liability order applications are agreed and authorised by the Magistrates' court? Any links to legislation?

 

Also any opinions of the legitimacy of councils specifying the amount of costs imposed on the actual summons document when a summons is only a means of inviting the defendant to court to answer the complaint?

 

Thanks for any information.

Edited by outlawla
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Not sure if this is what your after, here's a link to the regulations regarding summons and costs

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/34/made

doesn't seem to mention how its set.

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Not sure if this is what your after, here's a link to the regulations regarding summons and costs
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/613/regulation/34/made

doesn't seem to mention how its set.

 

Thanks!

 

Regulation 34 raises the question of how it can be possible for a debtor to stop the recovery process going to the liability order stage by settling outstanding council tax plus the costs imposed for the summons.

 

i.e

34.
–(5) If, after a summons has been issued in accordance with paragraph (2) but before the application is heard, there is paid or tendered to the authority an amount equal to the aggregate of—

 

(a) the sum specified in the summons as the sum outstanding or so much of it as remains outstanding (as the case may be); and

 

(b) a sum of an amount equal to the costs reasonably incurred by the authority in connection with the application up to the time of the payment or tender,

 

t
he authority shall accept the amount and the application shall not be proceeded with.

At any normal Magistrates' court hearing it would be Magistrates that determine the level of costs which would need to be awarded at the actual hearing.

 

To implement Regulation 34(5) above, the costs would need to be assumed as no court hearing has taken place at that stage.

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Having read around a bit I found some advice but couldn't find the specific regulations.

 

The council it would seem to need to notify the justices clerk of the "standard" costs it intends to charge for that year and the clerk needs to raise any objections. If at summons stage the council tax has been paid in full but the cost remain unpaid, the court can still issue a Liability Order for the original costs but not award any additional costs. The defendant can challenge the costs awarded at the Liability Hearing and equally the council can ask for the costs to be increased if it has incurred additional work e.g. hired legal consultants. So in effect the costs are still at the Magistrates discretion.

Edited by revshelp
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Having read around a bit I found some advice but couldn't find the specific regulations.

 

The council it would seem to need to notify the justices clerk of the "standard" costs it intends to charge for that year and the clerk needs to raise any objections. If at summons stage the council tax has been paid in full but the cost remain unpaid, the court can still issue a Liability Order for the original costs but not award any additional costs. The defendant can challenge the costs awarded at the Liability Hearing and equally the council can ask for the costs to be increased if it has incurred additional work e.g. hired legal consultants. So in effect the costs are still at the Magistrates discretion.

 

The council will always run the expected costs past the court in advance - this stops the court deciding at a hearing that they don't think the costs are appropriate.

 

When a summons is issued any applied costs are treated exactly the same as any council tax shown on the summons and a Liability Order can be granted against just the costs. Costs can be applied for the Liability Order granting irrespective of whether its for summons costs/council tax or a combination.

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The Council Tax Practice Note Number 9 Page 8, item 3.3 says:

3.3 The form of the council tax summons is not prescribed and authorities should liaise with the Clerk to the Justices to agree an acceptable format.......The summons should set out the sum outstanding for which the authority is applying for a liability order. It can also state the costs incurred to date and point out if these costs plus the sum outstanding are paid then the authority will not proceed with the application for a liability order.

It seems the rules are being bent to cater for the mass processing of these council tax liability orders. It must be as a result of the government's desire to automate, as far as possible, the judicial process.

 

The summons is a means of informing the defendant of the date, time and venue of the court hearing and should not include information advising what costs the defendant may pay to avoid the order being granted.

 

A predetermined amount of costs cannot be known and therefore not, with any credibility, be agreed by the Magistrates' court in advance. The letter detailed in my initial post is evidence that Magistrates' courts give a free rein to councils to determine their own level of costs. It also seems unlikely that authorities ever have to justify their claims.

 

Interestingly, in the same document linked to above, also on page 8, item 3.18 states:

“3.18....The order will include the costs reasonably incurred by the authority in securing the order. Whilst it is likely that authorities will have discussed a scale of fees with the Clerk to Justices it should be recognised that the Court may wish to be satisfied that the amount claimed by way of costs in any individual case is no more than that reasonably incurred by the authority

Costs imposed on residents can never be determined in advance because a higher number than that anticipated processed through the applications would mean that each defendant would have paid above the amount the council reasonably incurred.

Edited by outlawla
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