Patricia Pearl - Small Claims Procedure - A Practical Guide


An excellent guide for the layperson in how to use the County Court - a must if you are intending to start a claim.

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  1. #361
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Its obviously an invisible Matrix-or else maybe you have to go to Specsavers to see it ?


  2. #362
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Theres a thought too...I wonder if we will see an amended Matrix for the other case scheduled for May ?


  3. #363
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    There could even be another order for anon again but this time by the claimant.

    That reporting of the case be referenced as A Retailer with evidence from data M vs Mr X


  4. #364
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    There was once a poor claim for loss
    With very bad maths from the boss
    with eyes open wide
    She just couldnt decide
    Or even put the right case across.

    The Police took ages to come
    but only 10 minutes said some
    I might be wrong
    When I said was so long
    was replied with a tone that looked dumb.

    We agree on the order said O
    But 10 seconds later said no
    I need to confide
    As my client cant decide
    If ageeing will cause us a woe.

    For 10 minutes there was suspense
    Such agreement could be immense
    a call higher up was needed
    before could be conceded
    But the call did not make too much sense

    If all this sounds confusing
    It was really quite amusing
    As RLP passed notes it O
    He was not sure which way to go
    It was the Matrix that was main choosing.

    But in Court RLP took a back seat
    Mr T was taking the heat
    The submissions were fumbled
    As the Matrix was rumbled
    Yet A.R could not stay in her seat.


  5. #365
    Basic Account Holder Holly117 Novitiate

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    Default Re: Help with RLP




  6. #366
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Obviously wasted in the wrong job Martin.

    Presumably A.R. couldn't stay in her seat because she was getting ready to jump out of the frying pan & into the fire. Shame because I hear that frog's legs can be a delicacy ...


  7. #367
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    This may be a little premature, but a man must always have hope.


    In memoriam RLPicon...

    So. Farewell
    Then
    RLPicon.

    Self-appointed Sheriffs of Nottingham.

    Put to the test
    You could not
    Prevent
    Your own
    Loss

    A Poet
    (with apologies to E J Thribb)


  8. #368
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    A few thoughts on anonymity. As is clear from some of the above posts, the retailer claimant in the Oxford county courticon case has requested anonymity in the judgment, transcript, citation, reporting by the press and others, etc etc.

    For the record, I (and others) have no objection - repeat, no objection whatsoever - to A Retailer requesting and being granted such anonymity. In terms of taking this issue forward, it matters not a jot whether A Retailer is identified or not - the identify of the retailer is irrelevant, and all that matters is the judge's interpretation of the law. He may rule either way (though somehow I doubt A Retailer would be seeking anonymity if they were sure they were going to win), but the losing party will in any case have a right of appeal to the Court of Appeal, where any judgment will be legally binding. I am sure both parties want to see the law properly tested and clarified.

    That said, I am not alone in being somewhat surprised that A Retailer should want anonymity, for two reasons. Firstly, the British Retail Consortium has stated that its member retailers are wholly committed to "open and transparent" civil recovery practice. And it's simply not clear to me how anonymity for A Retailer is consistent with that public commitment. This CC claim was brought by A Retailer and RLPicon to justify their civil recovery practice. So, why not do so openly and transparently?

    Secondly - and far more importantly - we have been told repeatedly, by the British Retail Consortium, by retailer users of civil recovery, and by the civil recovery agents such as RLPicon, that one of the two main purposes of civil recovery is to deter shoplifting and retail crime. (The second main purpose is to recover the cost of such crime to the retailers, but as the practice would appear to recover less than 0.2% of the 4.4 billion annual cost of shoplifiting and other crime to the retail sector, it would appear to be somewhat ineffective in that regard).

    In itself, deterring shoplifting and other retail crime is a laudable objective, that I for one fully support. But it is not clear to me how anonymity in the Oxford CC case will assist A Retailer to deter crime. For a practice to be a deterrent, those who it is intended to deter need to know about it, surely? Frankly, I doubt many of those thinking of going out shoplifting will first take the time to read up on recent County Court judgments, or even to read this thread. But should they do so there is now no way they will be deterred from going shoplifting in A Retailer. Put another way, A Retailer and other major users of civil recovery should surely be shouting from the rooftops about it: "don't come and shoplift here, or you'll get a civil recovery demand and, if you don't pay that, we'll issue a County Court claim against you."

    Similarly, it is not at all clear to me (or others) why A Retailer would want to object to anonymity for the two young defendants, if it cannot have anonymity itself. Whether or not the girls are granted anonymity will make no difference to A Retailer's future ability to deter crime, or to recover the cost of crime though fair and proper legal action. (And for the record, no one at Citizens Advice has ever objected to retailers using legitimate and fair means to recover the cost of crime from proven offenders - our objection is simply to the unfairness of and lack of any clear legal basis for current civil recovery practice).

    But, finally, there is a more important point to be made (and it was made by the defendants' counsel in court): if the two young (and, at the time of the offence, foolish and misguided) defendants are not granted anonymity, then there is a very great risk that this will be used in future to deter anyone else thinking of defending a County Court claim issued in pursuit of an unpaid civil recovery. Did someone mention 'equality of arms'?

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  9. #369
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Hi Myddelton

    These retailers, including 'the Retailer with no name', don't need RLPicon, thats a fact (what exactly do they do?) by using RLPicon the Retailers can distance
    themselves from the business RLP carry out in the name of justice. You also have to bear in mind the millions these Retailers spend telling us how wonderful they are and we consumers should shop with them. Something similar, is how Barclaycard use Mercers to collect debts for them, but try to hide the fact that they are their own inhouse debt collectorsicon. These Retailers will try to protect their corporate image at all costs.


  10. #370
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Don't the CPUTR compel the retailer to abide by its trade association rules if the retailer advertises its membership?


  11. #371
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    There may be some good news coming !!!


  12. #372
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Quote Originally Posted by 42man View Post
    There may be some good news coming !!!
    Do tell!!


  13. #373
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Wahoo !. Sits on the edgeof my seat


  14. #374
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    It appears that the moth has flown too close to the flame.RLPicon's business model seems to be fatally flawed.No doubt La Lambert will embark on yet another turd-polishing exercise; I look forward to seeing the case reported on the RLPicon website.


  15. #375
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Just checked to see if RLPicon have posted this case on their up to the minute 'cases sent to court page'. Bizarrely, it's not there; they must be busy with other stuff.

    This is still on their website:

    "Why are Fixed Rates Used For Low Value Claims such as low value shoplifting?"

    Where the theft is low value, our clients do not wish their claims to appear disproportionate. Rather than seek the full extent of their losses, they therefore agree to seek a contributionicon to their losses. This is an acceptable means of streamlining the process of recovery, thus making it less expensive for the both the retailer and the shoplifter. The retailers bear the losses they opt not to recover.

    As the actual loss is far larger, than the contributionicon to loss claimed, this is a benefit to the Defendants who steal low value items. When considering the costs of proceeding such low value claims, it is further disproportionate to spend a lot of time and money quantifying each individual claim. If companies were to do so, they would have to claim the full amount to make any claim viable. The courts have accepted this type of evidence of quantification, even in higher value claims.

    Where a Defendant is a minor, a client may offer a significant discount to those fixed sums, in the hope that if they have to pay from their own money, it will serve as a deterrent in the future.

    In the mitigation of many cases, the case is withdrawn, on the basis that an individual does not commit any further tortuous acts, reserving the right to pursue both claims should there be such a further act. This again acts as a deterrent to crime.



  16. #376
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    probably shreading everything they can

    dx


  17. #377
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel View Post
    ... individual does not commit any further tortuous acts, reserving the right to pursue both claims ....
    Do they really say tortuous????

    Very sad. Where on earth were they educated?


  18. #378
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    They also say
    Brand protection is another key issue RLPicon considers with its clients, given that they are largely household brands. Our Claims advisers, client services team and legal advisers liaise with clients whenever any issue arises which may affect a client’s brand.
    That must be why "A Retailer - which dares not speak its name" - suddenly decided to ask for anonymity. Brand Protection - must be an example of Brand on the Run.


  19. #379
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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Quote Originally Posted by ScarletPimpernel View Post
    Eventually, yes.

    Remember that RLPicon don't take anyone to court - it's the retailers that have to do that. It's happened in a very tiny proportion of cases; RLPicon crow about some on their silly website. After one of their major clients, A Retailer, lost what appears to be the first properly defended case last week, I suspect that the chances of court action, already extremely small, is now even more remote.
    It is confirmed for sure now that the mysterious Retailer who Shall Not be Named has lost?


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    Default Re: Help with RLP

    Quote Originally Posted by caledfwlch View Post
    It is confirmed for sure now that the mysterious Retailer who Shall Not be Named has lost?
    Yes it is.

    However, we will need to see the judgment to understand the reasoning.

    It maybe that the judgment will also suggest a way that cases can be brought successfully - so peope should be wary.

    Also, it is only a county courticon case. It is not binding. RLPicon could decide to advise their clients to try again. However this would be risky because another cleint might not want to face the same risk of humiliation and of damaging their reputation in open court.

    Of course, the real message is: Don't shoplift.

    But to the retailers, the message is - let normal justice take its course. Don't get involved with Bounty Hunters - and even though it may seem to make some kind of economic sense, that is only in the short term.

    In the end, Bounty Hunting won't reduce your shoplifting problems.
    It only visits vengeance upon a very small number of individuals. It isn't appreciated by the majority of your brand managers.

    If you really want to recoup your losses from each shoplifter you catch, then do it yourself. You don't need to muddy the waters by bninging in bounty hunders



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