Hi,

Was searching on google for human rights in the work place etc and this forum seemed very helpful so here i am. Its a little bit long winded, but wanted to give a good description and a few examples so you can understand properly what exactly is going on so please bare with me.

I've worked for my current employer for 5 years now. Never really had any trouble, never had a formal warning anyway. I was called into the office once, and informed that my manager had been caught stealing, he admitted to it and was being sacked immediately. I asked why i'd been called in (going in the office is very rare there, id been there 2 years and never seen this woman before, she owns the business) and she said well i asked the manager if anyone else was involved helping him steal, and i quote she said "we 'think' he muffled your name under his breath". I was pretty gob smacked that a professional business owner came out with something as ridiculous as a remark like that, but rather than start saying well if you didn't hear him properly why didn't you ask him to repeat it, i just explained that i was innocent (Which i was) and that i had no idea about it (which i didn't) and that was the end of that. I later bumped into my ex manager outside of work, told him all about it and he called her a liar etc that she was 'trying it on' to see if i knew anything and would drop anyone else in it, i believed him and just thought she obviously doesn't like the look of me or trust me.

Anyway, about 2 weeks ago, we all came into work and there was talk on the shop floor of something else had gone missing, and there were guys outside putting cctv cameras up on the outside of the building pointing towards the exits, which we thought great at least they'll have a chance of catching the thief. They put a sign up on the wall stating that they are cctv cameras. A week later, we walked into work to what we could only describe as the big brother house. Its not a huge place, theres about 30 workers, and 12+ cameras up inside. No one told us there going up, no signs up with them, we just basically noticed them. Asked my direct manager and he just said oh yeah 'she' the owner wants to keep an eye on things, and that she's got the cameras streaming over the internet so that she can view them whilst at home and at work.

Same day, i went outside, loaded up a wagon, started walking inside and my direct manager come outside, "shes just been on the phone, she just saw on the cameras you havent shut the gates behind you go and close them" so of course i did. Later that day, loaded up a van with a delivery which i was told to do by my manager, whilst i was in the middle of it, my direct manager got a phone call, "whats going on hes putting boxes in the back of a van quick go and stop them", my manager told her it was an order going out for delivery and he knew all about it. He told me this happened later on after it all.

Thats just to give you an example of how it feels like there watching our every move, i can understand it that they want to make sure they catch who ever it is thats stealing, but they've had 2 people in the office because she saw them on cctv stood in front of the heaters for too long one day. And today to top it off, my manager had a meeting with her, came out and told me that she wanted a meeting with me and one of the other lads, i knew something was up because she never talks to us. I asked my manager what about and he said 'its about something shes seen you doing on the cameras'. We went in to see her and she had our clock cards on the desk, and said that it was about us being late. I have been late a few times only a few minutes not that that makes a difference and to be honest a warning for time keeping has been long over due for me and im going to have to sort that out as of now, but she said to us both i just want you to sort your time keeping out and work a bit harder. So i said is this just about our time keeping, or do you not think we're working hard enough from what youve seen on camera, and she said no its just about your time keeping. I left the room a bit confused as to why my manager had said she wanted to see us about something she saw on camera, and she said its nothing to do with what shes seen on camera. So i asked another manager who i get on with quite well who was also in that original meeting with her and my manager, he told me that she had been discussing with them what she had been seeing on the cameras, that she had been watching me and this other lad and that he in particular wasn't doing much work throughout the day and they had a discussion about it. I asked my boss then, in that meeting, did she say anything to you about watching me on camera? he said no. I said are you sure becuase i over heard something and have a reason to believe she did, he said no definitely no. So i know for a full on fact hes lying, which makes me not trust him in the slightest now.

It makes you feel very uncomfortable thinking every second of the day she is sat at home watching you. Im not a lazy worker, my manager although i dont trust him, he does like me as a worker because i help him out and am able to do more than the others in our department because ive been there a while and although i get paid the same as them theres always asking me how do i do this or do you know what to do with this etc so it takes alot off his shoulders so im pretty sure he wouldnt want me out himself as it would mean alot more work and mither for him. Hes told me that himself. So it doesnt particularly worry me that shes going to see me stood about, because its rare i do, but im finding myself now having to work differently, do my job differently because im constantly thinking 'how does this look on camera'. For example, i use a calculator alot and as we only have one in the office i used to just whip my phone out and do it on my phone, now i fear it might look like im texting, so i have to go into the office to do sums on calculator. Another example, we have to do alot of counting items in cases/boxes, im finding myself not leaning over a case counting whats inside it, because from the cameras view, im just leaning over a case, im instead knocking the sides off it, and finger counting each one so that the camera can see that what im doing is counting.

Basically after all that, what i (and my work mates) want to know is is this allowed? Is she allowed to put cameras up all over the place without letting us know or even putting signs up inside? And if thats perfectly fine, is she allowed to sit there watching us all the time, checking on how much work were doing? Some of the lads are saying they think shes only allowed to use them for security, but they dont know this for a fact, just guessing.

Another thing i thought about was, if the work place had lots of females in there, would a male boss/owner be able to sit at home watching them all day? I would've thought no, so don't see how its any different.

If your'e still reading after all that, thanks for your time, i know its a bit long winded but wanted to give all the details so you can give a good honest reply.

Thanks, appreciated.

Gosh....what an awful woman!

Here is some information about CCTV in the workplace from the information commissioners office (ICO)that you may find useful....

Maybe you could ring the ICO and discuss it with them

Appendix 3

Monitoring your workforce

When you install CCTV in a workplace, such as a shop, it is likely to capture pictures of workers, even if they are not the main subject of surveillance. If the purpose of the CCTV is solely to prevent and detect crime, then you should not use it for monitoring the amount of work done or compliance with company procedures.

Have the cameras been installed so they are not directed specifically to capture images of workers?

Are the recorded images viewed only when there is suspected criminal activity, and not just for routine monitoring of workers? Cameras installed for preventing and detecting crime should not be used for non-criminal matters.

Are images of workers used only if you see something you cannot be expected to ignore, such as criminal activity, gross misconduct, or behaviour which puts others at risk?

If these images are used in disciplinary proceedings, is the footage retained so that the worker can see it and respond? A still image is unlikely to be enough.

In some cases, it may be appropriate to install CCTV specifically for workforce monitoring. You should go through the decision making process in section 4 of this code and consider whether it is justified. In particular, consider whether better training or greater supervision would be a more appropriate solution.

Example: You suspect that your workers are stealing goods from the store room. It would be appropriate to install CCTV in this room, as it will not involve continuous or intrusive monitoring and is proportionate to the problem.

Example: You suspect that your workers are making mobile phone calls during working hours, against company policy, and you consider installing CCTV cameras on their desks to monitor them throughout the day. This would be intrusive and disproportionate. Continuous monitoring should only be used in very exceptional circumstances, for example where hazardous substances are used and failure to follow procedures would pose a serious risk to life.

Is CCTV limited to areas which workers would not expect to be private? CCTV should not be used in toilet areas or private offices.

Are workers made aware that the CCTV is for staff monitoring and how it will be used? How are visitors informed that CCTV is in operation?

If CCTV is used to enforce internal policies, are workers fully aware of these policies and have they had sufficient training?

Do you have procedures to deal appropriately with subject access requests from workers?

Workers should normally be aware that they are being monitored, but in exceptional circumstances, covert monitoring may be used as part of a specific investigation. Covert monitoring is where video or audio recording equipment is used, and those being monitored are unaware that this is taking place. Before approving covert monitoring, you should ask yourself:

Is this an exceptional circumstance, and is there is reason to suspect criminal activity or equivalent malpractice?

Will the cameras only be used for a specific investigation, and will they be removed once the investigation is complete?

Would it prejudice the investigation to tell workers that cameras are being used?

Have you taken into account the intrusion on innocent workers?

Has the decision been taken by senior management?

Cameras and listening devices should not be installed in private areas such as toilets and private offices, except in the most exceptional circumstances where serious crime is suspected. This should only happen where there is an intention to involve the police, not where it is a purely internal disciplinary matter.

In some cases, covert cameras installed for one investigation may turn up evidence of other criminal behaviour or disciplinary offences. You should only make use of this where the offence is serious, for example, gross misconduct or misconduct putting others at risk. It would be unfair to use evidence obtained covertly for minor disciplinary matters.

In some cases, covert monitoring may be covered by the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 or the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Scotland) Act 2000 (RIPA / RIPSA). You may wish to seek advice1.

More advice on monitoring workers can be found in our Employment practices code2.

If you would like to contact us please call 08456 306060, or 01625 545745 if you would prefer to call a national rate number.

e:[email protected]

January 2008

1 The Home Office guidance on RIPA can be found at http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa

2 The Employment practices code and other related guidance can be found on the ICO website: http://www.ico.gov.uk.

Wow! What an awful Situation. I've just finished reading your post.

Can I just clarify, earlier on in your post you state that cameras were put up and there was a sign also put up saying that there was cameras? Then later you say there is no signage?

I'm an SIA licensed CCTV operator, but my knowledge only really extends to public space surveillance.

I would however expect that adequate signage should exist where overt CCTV cameras are positioned. They should detail who owns the system and the reason for them (for example, public safety and prevention and detection of crime)

I would see these cameras as a good thing. Eventually the thief in the camp will be caught if the boss is studying the live stream so much.

We've recently had a camera installed in our control room (watching us, watching them lol) none of us were happy about it... You feel that your trust is being questioned. Same thing here, our boss (at first) would phone down 'why is so and so on his mobile phone'... He soon got bored once the novelty wore off. I also hardly notice it... In fact (hides round a corner as I reply to this thread on my phone in full view of the camera lol)

I really don't know about the legal side of work place monitoring... We did moan a bit at first questioning whether our boss had an SIA license to view cameras... But were quickly advises that SIA licenses are only needed for PSS monitoring.

Hopefully someone will be along soon to advise.

Thanks for your post. I'd say, try not to let it worry you too much! Your only argument (I think) would be inadequate signage... But this can be quickly sorted with a few signs from the boss. Follow the advice that I've been giving to members of the public for 10 years 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to worry about'

Hope this reply reassures you somewhat. I'm sure you'll get plenty of useful information here.

Kind regards

BM

Thanks gbarb and BM for replying.

BM, what i meant about the camera signs, is that on the outside of the building there are about 6 cameras facing the exits and car park, and there is one sign next to one of the cameras. These were put up, and we thought nothing of it. But then at a later period maybe a week or so, they put cameras up every where inside. No signs up inside, so i dont know whether they are supposed to or whether the one on the outside will do? Would have been nice for them to let us know that they're putting them up too.

Thanks again its appreciated

Excellent info from previous poster.. Interesting! Thanks for sharing.

Kind regards

BM

Hmmm, I see. Is there any way that people could enter the area without seeing the one sign? If yes, I'd definately say inadequate signage.

Ours also went up with no notice. Our boss threatened it for months. I came in one night and it was there... 'where is the sign, where is the sign'... 'just here BM - it's been here for years' ...'oh' (old sign from an old camera that was here for years before it mysteriously fell off the ceiling one night)

The guidance that the previous poster has provided is sht hot and very informative... I'm learning a lot of new stuff myself.

Hi Midnight runner

The more I think about this the more I feel that the employer is in breach of data protection laws (and possibly the human rights act)

I am going to play devils advocate here....You could contact the ICO, but if an investigation were carried out by them, would it be easy for the employer to ascertain where the complaint to ICO had originated from? Would the employer then make your working life even more difficult if she thought you were the originator of the complaint?

Do you have a union? If you do it might be worth having a word with them to see if they can approach the employer on behalf of the workers in order to resolve the issue.

Might be interesting to check whether your employer has registered as a Data Controller. You can search the register here http://www.ico.gov.uk/ESDWebPages/search.asp

See what type of data this lady has registered to be processing and if she hasn't registered that might give you more of a reason to log a complaint with the ICO. At present, much of what is being monitored could easily be covered by 'legitimate Health & Safety concerns', and you would be left with little else to do but to complain, lodge a grievance etc.

My wife had an experience where her manager watched her on town centre CCTV as she had friends there. She was accused of leaving work 5 minutes early.

Long drawn out disciplinary hearings and appeals but she won her case. Complained to the ICO and they were terrible. Took 2 years for them to finally deal with it. Even though my wifes company had already been warned under the DPA and caught out lying this time they were just warned again. ICO appear to be a toothless tiger unless its a case thats in the media.

With your case I believe they can put up as many cameras as they want. I believe they have to register the cameras and for what purpose they are used for and stick to that. Do you know for a fact that they are linked to the internet and she is watching you or is it just a ploy. Can you prove it? Although its not very nice I think it may be a bit of a grey area. They are being open and telling you about it, its the same as other equipment that monitors your workload/time keeping. There have also been thefts. They can also use covert cameras if they have strong evidence of theft in a specific spot.

Sorry if any of this has been covered in above posts as I havent got time to read through it all but drop me a PM if you need any specific advice as plenty of people have helped me

Sorry if any of this has been covered in above posts as I havent got time to read through it all but drop me a PM if you need any specific advice as plenty of people have helped me

Hello guys. At CAG we don't recommend advice by PM unless there are specific reasons for it, which at the moment there don't seem to be here. For everyone's security, advice is best kept on the open forum.

My best, HB

Sorry if any of this has been covered in above posts as I havent got time to read through it all but drop me a PM if you need any specific advice as plenty of people have helped me

 

Hello guys. At CAG we don't recommend advice by PM unless there are specific reasons for it, which at the moment there don't seem to be here. For everyone's security, advice is best kept on the open forum.

 

My best, HB

no probs, will try and keep an eye on the topic instead

Hi

Just a suggestion as the Company Boss is viewing these images via the internet do they have in place a secure server and relevant internet security not only in the workplace but at the Bosses Home Computer?

Have the employees been given or is it displayed the Companies CCTV Policy?

no probs, will try and keep an eye on the topic instead

If you have your settings set to receive email notification of future posts, it shouldn't be too hard.

HB

Hi again, and thanks for replying.

Im not sure 'how' they are being stored and im not too up on servers or what they do etc, but i know she can definitely watch them from home. As she only actually comes into work 1 day a week, and shes been phoning up about something we're doing every day of the week whilst she is at home 4 days.

Dont think there will be any CCTV policy, i'd be very surprised. Its definitely not the type of place thats up on procedures or any aspect of health and safety. Theres lads climbing up 20ft racking, using over head cranes without a licence, as well as forklift trucks, gas bottles not stored in a cage, and we're told to hide them all in box wooden crates if any type of health and safety officer is visiting. You get the idea. I dont even have a contract, or not that i know of. I got offered the job from the manager on the shop floor, never signed anything, or spoke to anyone from the office, and that was that. Ive since had to fill in the odd 'emergency contact details' peices of paper that come out of the office, but apart from that thats it. Its not just me, ive spoke to at least 12 others in there and none of them are even sure if they have a contract.

The more i think about it, the more i think the best road to take is to just get a new job as soon as possible.

Hi Midnight

Well, one good thing to come out of this is that you realise that there's only one person who cares about your health, safety and welfare and that's you.

Sometimes you have to put yourself first and look for something more suitable.

I know the current economic climate isn't the best time for finding a new job but it is easier to look for a job when you're in a job if you know what I mean.

These gives me a lot of insights guys. I thought ICO would back you up if you whistleblow a breach by some CCTV operators. Especially if employers use cctv as evidence to maliciously dismiss workers they dislike.

almost a year old now this thread.................

dx

Victime has their own thread now.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?379784-Is-using-cctv-like-this-discrmination-or-harassment

HB

Surely if they are streaming the cctv at home it is an invasion of privacy. We have cctv in place at our work that records all the cameras to a back up hard drive that they can view anything if needs be, but im sure they arent allowed to stream it at home!

Hi GlenJJ

This thread is over a year old now.